StanBalaban Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 10 minutes ago, TRO said: I say to you again....are there not examples of him in every country in the world? Tell me who, is the Country, where racsim does not exist. Its complex, which has been the centre of my point all along on this debate. To add one thing to this... I live in Dubai, which is a melting pot of people from all around the world. The Boris-type "exceptionalism" is a very English thing. Not British, but English. I've not seen it to that degree from any other nationality to date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 58 minutes ago, bobzy said: Reminds me of a good friend of mine who always used to call the local offy the “paki shop”. I called him out on it every time - whenever he’s reminded of it now, he shudders. Absolutely was racist, now isn’t. This is a brilliant example and it's also about how language changes. When I was a kid, we'd call the Chinese takeaway the Chinky. I look back and cringe but it was okay back then. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 21 minutes ago, TRO said: Stan...can you honestly say, you have never heard racist remarks, by Indian folk? towards other nationalities. What's the relevancy? Are players taking the knee only to end racism towards black people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, DCJonah said: You genuinely believe most people have said racist things? Really? I'll go against the grain here. I think most people have, under the guise of 'it was normal at the time' The difference is, as Stan says, people see racism with this polarised lense - eg you're either a racist or you're not. The difference is reflection and education. Me calling the restaurant a Chinky back then was a racist comment but everyone said it so I wouldn't say it was racism. Looking back it kinda was. I'm not a racist but I said something racist. Big Ron was a racist when he made that comment. It was 100% racially motivated and not said out of ignorance. I'm not sure what level of education can fix somebody saying something like that Edited July 16, 2021 by StefanAVFC 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 4 minutes ago, StanBalaban said: However, what better was to send a message of solidarity to the watching world than to take a knee in the final of Euro2020 Agreed. But what is is the appropriate consequence for those that booed? Bearing in mind the appropriate consequences have "drivers" deterrent (deter others from booing) restraint (ie remove or ban them from the stadium so they can't boo) restorative (community service perhaps to relieve the harm they might have done) retribution (plain and simple) Is 'booing' (protesting an action) something we want to discourage? We probable may want to boo Boris at some time. What would be the unintended consequences of implementing these consequences? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 25 minutes ago, TRO said: It is, which has been my main point. Stan...can you honestly say, you have never heard racist remarks, by Indian folk? towards other nationalities. I’m a bit alarmed at how many of your posts are “but these guys are racist too” as if it’s some weird defence. “I have a black friend” etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 1 minute ago, fruitvilla said: Agreed. But what is is the appropriate consequence for those that booed? Bearing in mind the appropriate consequences have "drivers" deterrent (deter others from booing) restraint (ie remove or ban them from the stadium so they can't boo) restorative (community service perhaps to relieve the harm they might have done) retribution (plain and simple) Is 'booing' (protesting an action) something we want to discourage? We probable may want to boo Boris at some time. What would be the unintended consequences of implementing these consequences? There shouldn’t be any consequence for those who boo (outside of karma meaning their lives are intolerable piles of shit). It’s basically just a massive shame that there are so many racist (and sexist and xenophobic etc) people out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 2 minutes ago, bobzy said: I’m a bit alarmed at how many of your posts are “but these guys are racist too” as if it’s some weird defence. “I have a black friend” etc. Not as good as 'well you live in poland' as a response to my posts 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 5 minutes ago, StanBalaban said: Without a doubt, it's a global issue. Not that I think you're saying this at all, but England shouldn't pat itself on the back for being slightly less racist than some other nations. However, what better was to send a message of solidarity to the watching world than to take a knee in the final of Euro2020. Stan we seen the error of our ways on Slavery and William Wilberforce was the man behind getting it abolished, and rightfully so, should never have happened in the first place, but who can re write history as dastardly as it was? It took America some time to catch up, with thousands and thousands of deaths of young Americans fighting each other,before reason could be established, it killed a president, his resolve against all odds consumed him.....when we look back, we realise how abominable we all where, but at the time, it seemed acceptable to those that wasn't subjected to it, they were primitive thinking folk, in that era. We are a leading nation and you are right, we should be a beacon of hope to the world.....But we can't boil the Ocean, but we can incrementally improve our race relations and I think we are, the pace of that can be debated. 65 million minds are hard to round up, and guide in the right direction, thankfully a huge proportion are already signed up as good, honest fair minded folk....The minority, is harder to change, but that is the challenge and one we must never give up on. I find it sad, when some folk tend to see us as a racist Country, because a minority, paint a picture of the majority, which in my view is disingenuous. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanBalaban Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 27 minutes ago, TRO said: It is, which has been my main point. Stan...can you honestly say, you have never heard racist remarks, by Indian folk? towards other nationalities. Oh I've definitely heard remarks from Indians about different types of Indians, Pakistanis, Brits, other nationalities and religions. It's everywhere for sure. A lot that's directed towards Europeans would tend to originate from historical suppression and a desire to over compensate now. Hardly right, excusable or appropriate, but just my take at offering context. It's a global phenomenon that some will choose to divide ourselves on the small differences rather unite on the vast similarities. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 (edited) 25 minutes ago, StanBalaban said: To add one thing to this... I live in Dubai, which is a melting pot of people from all around the world. The Boris-type "exceptionalism" is a very English thing. Not British, but English. I've not seen it to that degree from any other nationality to date. so what do you think of my friends experience in Saudi.....being fined for being in the country, by a traffic cop? and the indigenous driver who hit him got away scot free. Edited July 16, 2021 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 2 minutes ago, bobzy said: I’m a bit alarmed at how many of your posts are “but these guys are racist too” as if it’s some weird defence. “I have a black friend” etc. I get what you are saying here, and I am not sure I agree completely with TRO, but your comment seems to miss the underlying point. 2 minutes ago, bobzy said: There shouldn’t be any consequence for those who boo (outside of karma meaning their lives are intolerable piles of shit). It’s basically just a massive shame that there are so many racist (and sexist and xenophobic etc) people out there. OK so you seem to want Karma to do your retribution for you. Fair enough. Rather saying it's a shame I was hoping for a constructive strategy, so that we can avoid this retributive malarkey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 4 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Not as good as 'well you live in poland' as a response to my posts Your just taking comments well out of context, just for a argument and more justification to "your right were wrong".. What I did mean was, you maybe more educated to comment, as we all know Poland is old skool on racism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 1 minute ago, StanBalaban said: Oh I've definitely heard remarks from Indians about different types of Indians, Pakistanis, Brits, other nationalities and religions. It's everywhere for sure. A lot that's directed towards Europeans would tend to originate from historical suppression and a desire to over compensate now. Hardly right, excusable or appropriate, but just my take at offering context. It's a global phenomenon that some will choose to divide ourselves on the small differences rather unite on the vast similarities. Look mate, we are on the same page. Context was exactly what I was seeking, but some don't want to engage on that. Prejudice is a deadly sin, but who am I to try and reconcile it in to common sense.....we are Humans and we are a flawed species, despite our claim as the most intelligent. We just have to keep working to be good Souls and the majority of the worlds population are.....Good will always rise above evil. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanBalaban Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 1 minute ago, TRO said: so what do you think of my friends experience in Saudi.....being fined for being the country, by a traffic cop? Not much different here in the UAE to be fair. The locals get preferential treatment from the authorities, with foreign nationals in a collective 2nd place. Can't say too much about Saudi as my experiences there are electively limited. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 4 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: Your just taking comments well out of context, just for a argument and more justification to "your right were wrong".. What I did mean was, you maybe more educated to comment, as we all know Poland is old skool on racism. It isn't though. Generally Poles are as accepting and tolerant a people as any others. You have a loud minority here. I know black guys here who live in the City and have no issues. If they went to a village they'd be chased out of town. It's a real ignorance and a fear of the unknown. Are those people racist? Yes, but they're not a lost cause. I reckon Polish/British parents of the same age, if their daughter brought a black bf home, would have the same reaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 2 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: It isn't though. Generally Poles are as accepting and tolerant a people as any others. You have a loud minority here. I know black guys here who live in the City and have no issues. If they went to a village they'd be chased out of town. It's a real ignorance and a fear of the unknown. Are those people racist? Yes, but they're not a lost cause. I reckon Polish/British parents of the same age, if their daughter brought a black bf home, would have the same reaction. An football? Just as bad as England, yeah? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 All racism is bad obviously, but you can't really draw any comparison between white racism and black racism. Black racism is steeped in history of slavery, inequality and inhumanity, and most, if not all, black on white racism is a consequence of that. Look at language. The N word comes from slavery times, when white people didn't even see black people as humans. The only word I can think of that black people call whites is Honky. it either comes from an African language meaning 'red eared man' or it was picked up by black people in factories. Either way the Panthers picked it up in response to white people calling them the N word. Racism against black people is hugely disproportionate through history. The fact football players are even having to kneel before a game to make a stand is embarrassing, never mind that people are booing the gesture, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: An football? Just as bad as England, yeah? Can't really comment. I went to a few games and I never saw monkey chants, bananas, booing black players or any of that. At Div 3 level or Ekstraklasa level. If you went to a Polish international, they wouldn't be racist in the national stadium like Bulgaria were. It's more about hooliganism and ultras here than racism tbh. Racism here is more casual racism. Through ignorance. Poland is incredibly homogenous. This was aired just this year for example: They don't see it as racism. Because they don't have the historical context of blackface that we have in the UK, and in the US. They didn't have slavery. Edited July 16, 2021 by StefanAVFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 4 minutes ago, StanBalaban said: Not much different here in the UAE to be fair. The locals get preferential treatment from the authorities, with foreign nationals in a collective 2nd place. Can't say too much about Saudi as my experiences there are electively limited. but in this country some folk would pedal that as prejudice against Race. We would get called out for that and rightfully so, I add....that is not equality, and it is in part, what we are debating.....why do folk boo, the taking of the knee, what is their beef, is what I have been getting at. My point is Stan....The UK is not perfect, despite us wanting to be....when some folk have experienced stuff like that, it leaves a bad stain and resentment takes over, when we are trying to be fair minded folk.....not condoning it, trying to understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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