Racism in Football

[paul514]

2 hours ago, a m ole said:

I don’t dislike them, I find it hilarious that’s all you’ve got.

Correction - Willing to give.

[StanBalaban]

15 minutes ago, paul514 said:

Hi, I haven't disputed that some racism exists...

I'm not saying that you have disputed that racist doesn't exist. It definitely does, otherwise this whole point would be moot. 

I'm saying that personally, as a non-Marxist, capitalist, Englishman that's brown, and not black, I feel that taking the knee still speaks to me. This is from listening to what Tyrone says. From reading what Gareth Southgate wrote. Ahead of every PL game the commentators will say that we take the knee for the fight against racism. Do we really think the England captain is kneeling to defund the police in the US? 

It's a small symbol in the quest for people to be assessed on their individual qualities and not just on the colour of their skin. 

Surely that's a good thing?

I can't fathom why anyone that really wants a society where people aren't discriminated solely on their skin colour would actually boo it? 

 

[TRO]

10 hours ago, sparrow1988 said:

How do you create balance here though? Does the prime minister come out and say "Alright everyone, the other world leaders and I have decided to take all the money out of everyone's account and shared it evenly amongst all citizens. In order to rid all prejudice, we all start today from the same point." I'm being facetious here before anybody accuses me of being a descendant of Vladimir Lenin.

Do you allow black people to control a slave trade for the next couple of centuries build up their wealth over centuries with white people working for them and then roughly 200 years after that say "right, now we're roughly at the point of where we were in 2021, carry on as you see fit"? Again - facetious.

How can you create balance when an attack by a muslim on London Bridge or in Woolwich is described as a terror attack, and when an English man in his van drives in to a crowd of worshippers outside a mosque it's not?

You are right in your last two sentences. It is most definitely a work in progress and any sensible thinking person would distance themselves from discrimination or racism. As for your two-way street analogy, that may be true to an extent, but the white people have a much longer distance to travel on this street than the others.

my point was racism is not a one way street....but folk believe what they want to believe, so it ends up fait accompli....we are all trying to see end to any kind of racism.

I am saying Black people have a genuine case, as has been proved umpteen times....and I am as equally keen as you to see the back of it.

If you can't see the balance I was touching on, we will leave it there.

[TRO]

23 hours ago, DCJonah said:

He uses a lot of racist language for someone who isn't a racist. 

so did Ron Atkinson, and he isn't racist either....They might use words in regretful situations, doesn't make them racist.

 

[TRO]

28 minutes ago, StanBalaban said:

I'm not saying that you have disputed that racist doesn't exist. It definitely does, otherwise this whole point would be moot. 

I'm saying that personally, as a non-Marxist, capitalist, Englishman that's brown, and not black, I feel that taking the knee still speaks to me. This is from listening to what Tyrone says. From reading what Gareth Southgate wrote. Ahead of every PL game the commentators will say that we take the knee for the fight against racism. Do we really think the England captain is kneeling to defund the police in the US? 

It's a small symbol in the quest for people to be assessed on their individual qualities and not just on the colour of their skin. 

Surely that's a good thing?

I can't fathom why anyone that really wants a society where people aren't discriminated solely on their skin colour would actually boo it? 

 

I can't understand the booing either.....when they are caught and punishment duly applied, maybe they can explain to the Authorities their reason or motive for doing so.

I am not excusing them, just interested in their reasoning, so we can get to the bottom of it....it may vary, it may all be the same....We need to know.

Edited July 16, 2021 by TRO

[TRO]

22 hours ago, Ingram85 said:

A lot of Watermelon smiles beg to differ 

stupid comment, and typically Boris.....but I would agree, not what you would expect from a Prime Minister.

I don't support his attempt at Humour, and I'm sure he himself would agree, with me....when discussing such a delicate subject.

However, other leaders of other parties, do not have a monopoly on saying the right thing on this subject either.....there again 2 wrongs don't make a right.

It takes more than the odd incident, for me to form a lasting opinion of someone.....constant, repeatable nonsense, like that and I will agree with you.

I seem to remember Ron Atkinson's regretful comments too , that was quashed by some of the Black players he spent much time with, who could vouch for him, based on his general attitude towards them.

People say things on the spur of the moment, and understandably get rebuffed, when a sensitive subject like this is aired.....when they say it all the time, thats the time for enemy action.

 

 

[TRO]

22 hours ago, DCJonah said:

Is that your answer?

[AvonVillain]

36 minutes ago, StanBalaban said:

I can't fathom why anyone that really wants a society where people aren't discriminated solely on their skin colour would actually boo it?

Agreed. It really isn't a good look. But...

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

I am not excusing them, just interested in their reasoning, so we can get to the bottom of it....it may vary, it may all be the same....We need to know.

I think I am excusing *some* of them. I guess I'm just interested in people's motivations, and I genuinely believe (hope) few at VP were motivated by racism, but something else, like exasperation, which manifests in a poorly articulated howl of frustration.

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, AvonVillain said:

Agreed. It really isn't a good look. But...

I think I am excusing *some* of them. I guess I'm just interested in people's motivations, and I genuinely believe (hope) few at VP were motivated by racism, but something else, like exasperation, which manifests in a poorly articulated howl of frustration.

The problem, with this debate is, its so easy to be misconstrued.....I'm out.

Edited July 16, 2021 by TRO

[DCJonah]

12 minutes ago, TRO said:

Is that your answer?

@StefanAVFCmade a great post earlier. I can't be arsed responding to someone, who even now is throwing out the "don't all lives matter" when it comes to this. 

Edited July 16, 2021 by DCJonah

[DCJonah]

37 minutes ago, TRO said:

so did Ron Atkinson, and he isn't racist either....They might use words in regretful situations, doesn't make them racist.

 

Doesn't it? I think calling someone a lazy **** N word is pretty racist. In fact I don't know a single person who would ever use language like that let alone try and defend it. 

[DCJonah]

12 minutes ago, TRO said:

stupid comment, and typically Boris.....but I would agree, not what you would expect from a Prime Minister.

I don't support his attempt at Humour, and I'm sure he himself would agree, with me....when discussing such a delicate subject.

However, other leaders of other parties, do not have a monopoly on saying the right thing on this subject either.....there again 2 wrongs don't make a right.

It takes more than the odd incident, for me to form a lasting opinion of someone.....constant, repeatable nonsense, like that and I will agree with you.

I seem to remember Ron Atkinson's regretful comments too , that was quashed by some of the Black players he spent much time with, who could vouch for him, based on his general attitude towards them.

People say things on the spur of the moment, and understandably get rebuffed, when a sensitive subject like this is aired.....when they say it all the time, thats the time for enemy action.

 

 

Good argument. I guess all the kids Saville helped and didn't molest means he really wasn't that bad a person. 

Again truly stunned that there's a few people who claim to be against racism, going out of their way to defend and excuse racist behaviour. Guess that's why it's such a big issue still. And yes, your attitude is a massive part of the problem. 

Language like Boris and Atkinson used should absolutely be condemned, not just excused as some idiotic mistake by a loveable fool.

[AvonVillain]

5 minutes ago, TRO said:

I seem to remember Ron Atkinson's regretful comments too , that was quashed by some of the Black players he spent much time with, who could vouch for him, based on his general attitude towards them.

I think this is a good point, and brings us to our own John Terry. Does anybody here genuinely think JT is racist? I have many football friends who all support different teams, and they all dislike JT, so of course they say he is. The people who actually know him or teammates like Ashley Cole say different. Who's right? He probably did say that deeply hurtful thing to Anton Ferdinand, just like Big Ron on live TV, but were they being immensely stupid and thoughtless in the moment, or are we saying their hearts are filled with implacable hatred for people with a different pigment underneath the skin? Because that is essentially what is being said of every single person who boos the knee.

[Ingram85]

14 hours ago, TRO said:

stupid comment, and typically Boris.....but I would agree, not what you would expect from a Prime Minister.

I don't support his attempt at Humour, and I'm sure he himself would agree, with me....when discussing such a delicate subject.

However, other leaders of other parties, do not have a monopoly on saying the right thing on this subject either.....there again 2 wrongs don't make a right.

It takes more than the odd incident, for me to form a lasting opinion of someone.....constant, repeatable nonsense, like that and I will agree with you.

I seem to remember Ron Atkinson's regretful comments too , that was quashed by some of the Black players he spent much time with, who could vouch for him, based on his general attitude towards them.

People say things on the spur of the moment, and understandably get rebuffed, when a sensitive subject like this is aired.....when they say it all the time, thats the time for enemy action.

Quote

Boris Johnson called gay men 'tank-topped bumboys' and black people 'piccaninnies' with 'watermelon smiles'

... and plenty more examples on ththis link (Business Insider)

[TRO]

1 minute ago, DCJonah said:

Good argument. I guess all the kids Saville helped and didn't molest means he really wasn't that bad a person. 

Again truly stunned that there's a few people who claim to be against racism, going out of their way to defend and excuse racist behaviour. Guess that's why it's such a big issue still. And yes, your attitude is a massive part of the problem. 

Language like Boris and Atkinson used should absolutely be condemned, not just excused as some idiotic mistake by a loveable fool.

Firstly your guess, is a ridiculous example and a better one could have been sought.

You see, here you go again, on your high horse, playing to the Gallery......I abhor Racism, its your interpretation of the debate, I disagree with.

How can I spell it out to you.....I abhor any form of Racism or Bullying of any kind, including cruelty to Animals.....Have you got the message.

[DCJonah]

Just now, TRO said:

Firstly your guess, is a ridiculous example and a better one could have been sought.

You see, here you go again, on your high horse, playing to the Gallery......I abhor Racism, its your interpretation of the debate, I disagree with.

How can I spell it out to you.....I abhor any form of Racism or Bullying of any kind, including cruelty to Animals.....Have you got the message.

And yet you choose to post on an Internet forum, defending, excusing and minimising racist behaviour. Do you not see how that is part of the issue and has been for so long? 

[Ingram85]

Imagine going out of your way to defend BJ the racist/sexist “character” but not the players kneeling to raise awareness. A peculiar hill but you do you. 

[DCJonah]

8 minutes ago, Ingram85 said:

Imagine going out of your way to defend BJ the racist/sexist “character” but not the players kneeling to raise awareness. A peculiar hill but you do you. 

And yet them claim you're seriously against racism. Maybe try not looking to excuse it so much then. 

[AvonVillain]

2 minutes ago, Ingram85 said:

Imagine going out of your way to defend BJ the racist/sexist “character” but not the players kneeling to raise awareness. A peculiar hill but you do you. 

So, think I'll make this my last comment, but TRO, who I believe you're speaking about, isn't 'going out of his way' really is he, but sat somewhere, probably quite comfortably, respectfully arguing his feelings, whilst acknowledging the complexity of human behaviour without jumping to the conclusions that others are, on a football forum. That's it. The best place for adult communication is, was, and always will be the pub, just as I suspected all along.

On that note, I had a few drinks with Tyrone Mings' sister after the West Brom playoff game (a real live wire!) and she's excellent company, just as I imagine Tyrone is, who I'd love to speak to on this very subject. I don't think it's going anywhere here.

[DCJonah]

23 minutes ago, AvonVillain said:

I think this is a good point, and brings us to our own John Terry. Does anybody here genuinely think JT is racist? I have many football friends who all support different teams, and they all dislike JT, so of course they say he is. The people who actually know him or teammates like Ashley Cole say different. Who's right? He probably did say that deeply hurtful thing to Anton Ferdinand, just like Big Ron on live TV, but were they being immensely stupid and thoughtless in the moment, or are we saying their hearts are filled with implacable hatred for people with a different pigment underneath the skin? Because that is essentially what is being said of every single person who boos the knee.

Where is racism defined as having your heart filled with implacable hatred? 

No wonder you don't see it as racist behaviour if this is your baseline.

Edited July 16, 2021 by DCJonah