Mark Albrighton Posted December 10, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted December 10, 2018 5 minutes ago, Zatman said: All of them players and few more would tell you how great Scholes was. He pisses all over Gerrard as a midfielder I’m sure they could. Doesn't change how Scholes is more appreciated now than he was when he was playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, Shropshire Lad said: I’m sure they could. Doesn't change how Scholes is more appreciated now than he was when he was playing. Its hard to say. I think when at his peak his type of midfielder wasnt common in England anyway. Recently players like Xavi, Iniesta, Pirlo, Modric have highlighted that position in the team 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 I think i'm in the camp that Scholes is comfortably better than Gerrard (they have similar scoring exploits, apart from a season where SG scored 16 in 30 games), but Lampard is better at shots outside the box/arriving in the box. Saying that Gerrard has probably never played in teams as good as 90s Utd, but held the captain mantle very well. Again, it's comparing things on very limited similarities (position, goals, appearances) - there's so many things that can never be compared, so it's just my gut feeling that Scholes was a more "complete" player than either Gerrard/Lampard. He certainly won more than either of them. But I think it's criminal how little he was used in the England team, if anyone should have been dropped, it's Gerrard for me (who again, was a great PL player). Anyway, this is way off topic, maybe we could start a PL Great players debate topic or something? Again, Messi is more fun to watch. I think someone said it best when they said "he gives me more WOW moments" - excellent summary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 On 08/12/2018 at 21:24, villa4europe said: messi scored his 10th free kick of 2018 tonight not a single other club in the top 5 leagues has scored 10 free kicks this year To add some more depth to this, Barcelona gets and Messi takes a lot more free kicks than most other clubs. I'm using Reddit but Reddit cites stats at thesignificantgame.com which has collected stats for direct free kick success rates since the start of 2015/16. Messi has a lot of goals but his strike rate isn't as good as other players. Seems 8-10% scoring rate puts you in the class where you'd be considered a weapon, Messi is sitting in that bracket at 9.4%, there are players with significantly better strike rates though. Neymar is scoring with 16.4% of his attempts, Willian and Alonso at Chelsea are sitting at over 17% and Juan Mata is almost at 25%. Now of course this probably just means players with higher strike rates don't shoot from free kicks unless they are pretty sure they are capable of scoring while Messi tries his luck from more improbable situations but it's worth highlighting the other side to his free kicks. Ronaldo, for what it's worth, is sitting at 5%, down from an average of 7% while he was at Real Madrid. He's not scored a direct free kick for Juve yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Maradona was better than Messi. However both Messi and Ronaldo will be on a very short list of all time greats. That said, the greatest player I've ever seen is Ronaldo (Brazilian) between 96-99, had he not had the horrific injuries he sustained in Italy he would have gone on to be the very best in the history of football. In 98/99 he was maturing into a player who was just as good as a number 10 as a number 9. Stunning player, between 96-99 he was quite a lot better than Messi or Cristiano in their primes. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted December 10, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted December 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Dr_Pangloss said: Maradona was better than Messi. However both Messi and Ronaldo will be on a very short list of all time greats. That said, the greatest player I've ever seen is Ronaldo (Brazilian) between 96-99, had he not had the horrific injuries he sustained in Italy he would have gone on to be the very best in the history of football. In 98/99 he was maturing into a player who was just as good as a number 10 as a number 9. Stunning player, between 96-99 he was quite a lot better than Messi or Cristiano in their primes. Agree with the Ronaldo stuff If he'd had the longevity that these two had then he'd be in the same bracket. I'd probably say the same about Ronaldinho too. For a couple of years he was unbelievably good. but he didn't do it for long enough to be put into the conversation. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted December 10, 2018 Author Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Shropshire Lad said: (who all rate him higher than Gerrard for some reason...). I also rate him higher that both Gerrard and Lamps. Scholes wins you leagues, Gerrard wins you big games. Take your pick Edited December 10, 2018 by villalad21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted December 10, 2018 Author Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) Xavi has stated if it is one thing he regret the time he was playing it is never to have been able to play alongside Scholes. I think that tells alot about Paul Scholes. Edited December 10, 2018 by villalad21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Albrighton Posted December 10, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted December 10, 2018 5 minutes ago, villalad21 said: I also rate him higher that both Gerrard and Lamps. Scholes wins you leagues, Gerrard wins you big games. Take your pick What does Lampard win you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Agree with the Ronaldo stuff If he'd had the longevity that these two had then he'd be in the same bracket. I'd probably say the same about Ronaldinho too. For a couple of years he was unbelievably good. but he didn't do it for long enough to be put into the conversation. Perhaps current advances in medicine would have helped him out a lot back then. Still testament that he could come back and be among the very best strikers in the world from 2001-2006 but was just such a shadow of the player he used to be, diminished pace and agility and all 'number 10' skills he was developing had pretty much gone. In 97/98 he was dropping deeper and playing defence splitting passes, really making a lot of assists and even banging in freekicks. Edited December 10, 2018 by Dr_Pangloss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted December 10, 2018 Author Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Shropshire Lad said: What does Lampard win you? Lamps was a great footballer there is no denying it. But Scholes is just more technically gifted as a footballer. The same reason why Messi to me is better than Ronaldo. You don't see all time greats like Zidane, Xavi and even Pep Guardiola calling out Lampard or Gerrard when talking about english footballers, it's always Scholes. Edited December 10, 2018 by villalad21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Dr_Pangloss said: Maradona was better than Messi. However both Messi and Ronaldo will be on a very short list of all time greats. That said, the greatest player I've ever seen is Ronaldo (Brazilian) between 96-99, had he not had the horrific injuries he sustained in Italy he would have gone on to be the very best in the history of football. In 98/99 he was maturing into a player who was just as good as a number 10 as a number 9. Stunning player, between 96-99 he was quite a lot better than Messi or Cristiano in their primes. He was so good. Like a player from 25 years in the future. Completely unstoppable. Which sadly meant he got booted into next week. If he'd have appeared 10 years later he'd have been much better protected and we may have seen him at an even higher level. What we did see wasn't "quite a lot better" than prime Messi I'm afraid. It's tight either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted December 10, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted December 10, 2018 Yeah I missed that bit. He wasn't "quite a lot better" than Messi or CRonaldo. But I think the argument is there that he was "better". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Albrighton Posted December 10, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) 32 minutes ago, villalad21 said: Lamps was a great footballer there is no denying it. But Scholes is just more technically gifted as a footballer. The same reason why Messi to me is better than Ronaldo. You don't see all time greats like Zidane, Xavi and even Pep Guardiola calling out Lampard or Gerrard when talking about english footballers, it's always Scholes. That’s fine. I don’t particularly disagree with the notion that Scholes was better, I don’t know who was better. I was pointing out (i) my Man Utd mates may have a slight bias in saying Scholes was better and (ii) Scholes’ reputation has grown since his retirement. I think some of this is a genuine appreciation of his abilities, and some of it is people pretending to themselves that they never underrated Scholes in the first place. In my opinion. Edited December 10, 2018 by Shropshire Lad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted December 10, 2018 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2018 The Brazilian Ronaldo isn't at the same level at the Portuguese Ronaldo for me, he's more in that Zidane, Ronaldinho, Cruyff band who were incredible in their own right, but not quite where the big three are. In all honesty, I'm not sure the Brazilian Ronaldo makes my top six or seven - he might not be top ten. For me, the two Argentinians are almost inseparable at the top of the pile - I'll give it to Maradona, because he could do it while he was off his face. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 20 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: The Brazilian Ronaldo isn't at the same level at the Portuguese Ronaldo for me, he's more in that Zidane, Ronaldinho, Cruyff band who were incredible in their own right, but not quite where the big three are. In all honesty, I'm not sure the Brazilian Ronaldo makes my top six or seven - he might not be top ten. For me, the two Argentinians are almost inseparable at the top of the pile - I'll give it to Maradona, because he could do it while he was off his face. Zidane is definitely among the very best to ever play football, top tier. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted December 10, 2018 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2018 13 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said: Zidane is definitely among the very best to ever play football, top tier. As I wrote that sentence out, I did wonder if I was being a bit harsh on both Zidane and Cruyff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Prime Brazilian Ronaldo was the type of player you'd try to create on FIFA or something. He had Adama Traore like speed and acceleration, plus Ronaldinho level skill and vision. An unbelievable finisher too, he once scored 47 goals as a teenager for Barcelona in a season. By 20 he had already scored 100 goals in senior European football. I'm certain if he hadn't been decimated by injuries he would have been the GOAT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDuck Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 12 hours ago, villalad21 said: You don't see all time greats like Zidane, Xavi and even Pep Guardiola calling out Lampard or Gerrard when talking about english footballers, it's always Scholes. The most common names I've heard over the years mentioned by great overseas players when talking about English players they loved are Hoddle, LeTissier and Scholes - all of whom were criminally misused/underused by England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted December 11, 2018 Author Share Posted December 11, 2018 7 hours ago, MrDuck said: The most common names I've heard over the years mentioned by great overseas players when talking about English players they loved are Hoddle, LeTissier and Scholes - all of whom were criminally misused/underused by England. England should have played Gerrard as a box to box, Lampard as a free roaming midfielder and Scholes as a deep lying midfielder, but they were stuck in the past and played a pre historic 4-4-2. --------------------------James------------------------ Neville--------Terry----Ferdinand---------Cole --------------------------Scholes------------------------ -----------------Lampard----Gerrard------------ Beckham...........---Rooney-----------------J.Cole Would rip teams apart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts