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Demitri_C

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3 minutes ago, TRO said:

Equally, we could still finish where. had hoped13/14/15th in which case there is no concern....but i have doubts we will, by what i see in our low games.

my concerns come from watching the games....I still see errors from last season, forgive me for thinking that some of those could have been improved.

My point is, for all your complaints and criticism, had just one game gone differently we’d be where you hoped.

Thats why it all feels rather over the top.

Edited by terrytini
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3 minutes ago, terrytini said:

I really really didn’t, and dont, expect us to above the likes of Newcastle.  Goodness me they were 13 th in May, while we were 5th in the Championship !

Anyway, that side of it has been done to death. But it does show how closely linked are expectations and satisfaction.

But based on your response......How do you reconcile Sheff Utd....in second place in the championship at that time and have overtaken them to be sitting in 5th.

How do you consider Wolves, who are probably a better team now than Arsenal.

we do have to be careful not to expect too much, but equally, we have to be careful that we just accept the status quo as the best we can do.

personally, I think, we can do a bit better.

I look at the teams that have done well, not them languishing with us.

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7 minutes ago, GingerCollins29 said:

That's worked dead well for wet spam hasn't it

Since Moyes took over they haven't been doing too bad in the league all things considered. Lost to Leicester, Liverpool and Sheffield which are understandable. Demolished Bournemouth 4-0 and been scapping draws with Brighton and Everton. Could definitely improve of course but its a bit too soon to conclude how Moyes has done.

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11 minutes ago, lexicon said:

I think you're underestimating both the time it takes and the difficulty of the league. It's very tight this year and for most of our players and coaching staff, a new experience. 

There is always a danger of that, I agree.

but i think we could be doing a tad better.

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1 minute ago, TRO said:

But based on your response......How do you reconcile Sheff Utd....in second place in the championship at that time and have overtaken them to be sitting in 5th.

How do you consider Wolves, who are probably a better team now than Arsenal.

we do have to be careful not to expect too much, but equally, we have to be careful that we just accept the status quo as the best we can do.

personally, I think, we can do a bit better.

I look at the teams that have done well, not them languishing with us.

Sorry I don’t compare us to Wolves or Sheffield. But yes, they’ve done well. Football is all about different teams doing differently.

Ive not seen anyone “ accepting the status quo”.

Most, including me, share your analysis of some of our weaknesses, as I’ve said before its hardly the discovery of the age.

We certainly CAN do better. And/ or worse. As can every side. That’s not in doubt.

The rest is done to death. I repeat, had one result gone differently we’d be meeting your ( unreasonably high in my view but fair enough) expectations.

As such, I think the gloom and doom, and incessant citing of us being a soft touch, are overdone. 
Not totally whacky. Not ridiculous. Just overdone. 

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8 minutes ago, terrytini said:

My point is, for all your complaints and criticism, had just one game gone differently we’d be where you hoped.

Thats why it all feels rather over the top.

Terry

if what you say is right.....we had another 3 points and the league position is more comfortable.

what has that got to do with us being too easily to beat or concede goals that encourage the opposition.

We are one of the worst away teams, for results ,have conceded more goals from set pieces, we have conceded more goals as a whole, perhaps close to Norwich.

i find it inconceivable to watch our games and not have concerns and moreover, many of the same issues still unattended.

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3 minutes ago, terrytini said:

Sorry I don’t compare us to Wolves or Sheffield. But yes, they’ve done well. Football is all about different teams doing differently.

Ive not seen anyone “ accepting the status quo”.

Most, including me, share your analysis of some of our weaknesses, as I’ve said before its hardly the discovery of the age.

We certainly CAN do better. And/ or worse. As can every side. That’s not in doubt.

The rest is done to death. I repeat, had one result gone differently we’d be meeting your ( unreasonably high in my view but fair enough) expectations.

As such, I think the gloom and doom, and incessant citing of us being a soft touch, are overdone. 
Not totally whacky. Not ridiculous. Just overdone. 

We are a soft touch, how can it be over done, unless you baulk at it.

its a fact, not even an opinion.

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5 minutes ago, TRO said:

Terry

if what you say is right.....we had another 3 points and the league position is more comfortable.

what has that got to do with us being too easily to beat or concede goals that encourage the opposition.

We are one of the worst away teams, for results ,have conceded more goals from set pieces, we have conceded more goals as a whole, perhaps close to Norwich.

i find it inconceivable to watch our games and not have concerns and moreover, many of the same issues still unattended.

If we were 20 points off your target, that’s one thing, it would be accompanied by one level of dissatisfaction and criticism.

If we were 15 off, I’d expect folk, and you, to be less bothered.

If we were 10 off, less still.

We are about One Win off where you hoped, and almost exactly where many expected, ( a point per game).

Your Posts read more like it’s 20.

Its all over the top.

 

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1 hour ago, TRO said:

Perhaps if some of those deficiences had been dealt with, we wouldn't be struggling quite so much as we are.

I am sorry Mark, I just don't accept the staus quo as much as you choose to see validity in it.....thats where we differ.

You could say that about every side that is down the bottom. I think every side down there with us as pretty much struggled all season and has the same problems now that it did 3 or 4 months ago. The major difference between us and every other side down there is we saw a turnover of 25+ players over the summer and aside from Norwich were playing at a lower level last season. I'd be way more pissed off and worried if I were a Bournemouth or Watford fan and been in the Prem at least 5 years to find that we couldn't score goals or a West Ham fan after 8 years in the Prem to find that we couldn't defend or a Norwich fan to see that my side, that knew they would be playing in the Premier League a month before us, find they they struggle to score and concede loads.

It was always a tough ask to get promoted at the end of May, see a huge turnover in players over the next 2 months and then expect us to compete in the Premier League. Thankfully we are making a bloody good fist of it despite unsurprisingly some deficiencies and having to compete at the bottom of the table with sides who have way less excuses than us for finding themselves in the same mire we are.

Edited by markavfc40
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He's actually done o.k since the awful xmas period.

If you include the Norwich game which we were incredibly lucky to win, we've taken 10 points from six games and produced a shock in the cup to make major final. We take 10 points from our next 10 games and we'll probably one be one win from staying up.

Yesterday's defeat wasn't in the same ballpark as Watford away when relegation looked inevitable. Yes less games now but we're in a better place so while there are plenty of doubts long term it seems silly just to go back to Smith out on account of losing yesterday.

If he was going to be sacked it would've happen at Xmas so he'll be here until May and we'll then see if that was the right call.

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26 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

You could say that about every side that is down the bottom. I think every side down there with us as pretty much struggled all season and has the same problems now that it did 3 or 4 months ago. The major difference between us and every other side down there is we saw a turnover of 25+ players over the summer and aside from Norwich were playing at a lower level last season. I'd be way more pissed off and worried if I were a Bournemouth or Watford fan and been in the Prem at least 5 years to find that we couldn't score goals or a West Ham fan after 8 years in the Prem to find that we couldn't defend or a Norwich fan to see that my side, that knew they would be playing in the Premier League a month before us, find they they struggle to score and concede loads.

It was always a tough ask to get promoted at the end of May, see a huge turnover in players over the next 2 months and then expect us to compete in the Premier League. Thankfully we are making a bloody good fist of it despite unsurprisingly some deficiencies and having to compete at the bottom of the table with sides who have way less excuses than us for finding themselves in the same mire we are.

I'm not intersted in every other side, if I was i would cite Sheff utd or Newcastle who pound for pound are no better than us, just secured more points.

I am talking about us.

I think being first to the ball at The vitality stadium is not too much to ask on the back of a great semi final win.

and that one win as terry talks about is not so easy to come by with our unpredictable play.

 

Edited by TRO
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1 hour ago, terrytini said:

If we were 20 points off your target, that’s one thing, it would be accompanied by one level of dissatisfaction and criticism.

If we were 15 off, I’d expect folk, and you, to be less bothered.

If we were 10 off, less still.

We are about One Win off where you hoped, and almost exactly where many expected, ( a point per game).

Your Posts read more like it’s 20.

Its all over the top.

 

I really don't know we you are talking about Terry.

I am talking about being second to most balls and conceding avoidable goals leading to a defeat on the back of a great semi final win.

then you go off on a tangent talking about points v expectation.

We are talking different things mate......lets just leave it there, before we bore the site.

Edited by TRO
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11 minutes ago, TRO said:

I'm not intersted in every other side, if I was i would cite Sheff utd or Newcastle who pound for pound are no better than us, just secured more points.

2 points on that.

1. They've played together for longer as a group. We bought a whole new team in the summer

2. They've got coaches who build their system around defensive organization. Farke and Smith builds their teams around attacking football.

That being said. I don't think it should take years for a team to gel. Good coaches makes it work. Rodgers needed next to no time to get his players playing the brand he wanted. 

I understand that whole point of a new team etc but having the joint worst defensive record in the league and being the team that concedes the most amount of shots is something i can't accept. Nor should i.

Edited by villalad21
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11 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

2 points on that.

1. They've played together for longer as a group. We bought a whole new team in the summer

2. They've got coaches who build their system around defensive organization whereas Farke and Smith builds their teams around attacking football.

That being said. I don't think it should take years for a team to gel. Good coaches make it work. Rodgers needed next to no time to get his players playing the brand he wanted. 

1.They played in Division 1 too..... it could be argued their players are not good enough for the premier, that would have been said, if they was down here with us.

2. Well, i would say, they have a better appreciation of the art of defending as a team.

I don't know how long these things take, I'm not sure anyone else  does either.

 

Edited by TRO
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5 minutes ago, TRO said:

1.They played in Division 1 too..... it could be argued their players are not good enough for the premier, that would have been said, if they was down here with us.

2. Well, i would say, they have a better appreciation of the art of defending as a team.

I don't know how long these things take, I'm not sure anyones else does either.

 

Dont you think the defensive issue is made even more weird by the fact we have JT and it appears to have zero effect?

Wonder what JT does?, or maybe the overall coaching doesn't coach proper defensive stuff?, or maybe the players are told and just dont bother?

Heck, maybe JT is one of those people who have the knowledge to apply it to playing, but not a good teacher?, plenty of those in life, no idea.

Who knows.....

Edited by MaVilla
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Stop blaming JT.

Smith set's out the instructions, tactics, team shape and formation.

Terry can do as great defensive drills as he wants but if Smith tells his midfielders and fullbacks to bomb forward it will leave us exposed at the back.

The blame starts and ends with Smith.

We have played some good stuff at times but defensively we've been poor all season.

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45 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

You could say that about every side that is down the bottom. I think every side down there with us as pretty much struggled all season and has the same problems now that it did 3 or 4 months ago. The major difference between us and every other side down there is we saw a turnover of 25+ players over the summer and aside from Norwich were playing at a lower level last season. I'd be way more pissed off and worried if I were a Bournemouth or Watford fan and been in the Prem at least 5 years to find that we couldn't score goals or a West Ham fan after 8 years in the Prem to find that we couldn't defend or a Norwich fan to see that my side, that knew they would be playing in the Premier League a month before us, find they they struggle to score and concede loads.

It was always a tough ask to get promoted at the end of May, see a huge turnover in players over the next 2 months and then expect us to compete in the Premier League. Thankfully we are making a bloody good fist of it despite unsurprisingly some deficiencies and having to compete at the bottom of the table with sides who have way less excuses than us for finding themselves in the same mire we are.

We are not 'making 'a good fist of it', we are struggling. The reason we were the second highest spenders in the Premiership was to ensure that we survived. That is a long way from being certain, indeed it looks tenuous at best. Put yourself in the owners position, if the club spent £146 million on players ( of 'your money' ) in the summer and then got relegated I imagine you would be very unhappy and would be asking how this could happen. As a successful football club/ business we need to be moving forward .

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5 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

Dont you think the defensive issue is made even more weird by the fact we have JT and it appears to have zero effect?

Wonder what JT does?, or maybe the overall coaching doesn't coach proper defensive stuff?, or maybe the players are told and just dont bother?

Heck, maybe JT is one of those people who have the knowledge to apply it to playing, but not a good teacher?, plenty of those in life, no idea.

Who knows.....

I have no idea, where the problem lies, I think a lot is in midfield....in terms of the coaching, i would just be speculating....i am not privvy to what they do.

where i get frustrated is the seeming denial from some fans, when it is clear......its easy to labour the point in such circumstances.

its difficult to have a grown up debate on it ....without someones parade being rained on.

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