Dean Smith

[markavfc40]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

Thats rubbish.

So in taking over from the RDM debacle and gaining 24 wins during the next season was not building something ..

I think the problems we have now are due to the short term planning of both RDM and Bruce. You look at what Wilder has done at Sheff Utd and he built a squad that he could improve to the point that the side that played us a couple of weeks ago contained 9 players that played last season. Wilder put in solid foundations to ensure that he didn't need a complete overhaul when they came up it needed a few signings to complement/improve on what he had already built.

RDM/Bruce signed the likes of Jedinak, Whelan, Terry, Adomah, Elphick all players that were done in the top flight. Then we had the likes of McCormack at 29 when we signed him and who had never kicked a ball in the top flight so was never likely to make the step up with us. The rare young promising players we did sign in Hogan and Bree never improved in 2 years under Bruce instead they went backwards to the point neither are now deemed good enough to feature even in the Championship. You then throw in the short term fixes in Snodgrass, Bolasie, Grabban, Tuenzebe, Tammy, Samba and you have a hell of a lot of players and expense in fees and wages on players that were never going to make the step up with us. The second we got promoted it was with a squad built on the foundations of sand.

Smith/Purslow/Suso have tried to both build a squad capable of keeping us up whilst signing players with their best years ahead of them that can be coached and improved over time either meaning as a squad we improve or they can be sold on at a profit and the club is able to reinvest that money. The fact they have had to do this whilst trying to compete in the toughest league in the world isn't through choice. It is due to the legacy of Bruce, RDM, Wyness and the fact that Smith produced a minor miracle and got us promoted so quickly.

Edited January 5, 2020 by markavfc40

[screwdriver]

can't believe Smith has been loaning out body more heath to lower league sides. all of this whilst we go crashing out of the cup!........ disgrace!

If I was a chef I would have refused to stay behind. I'd have said "oi smith no! cook your own mates their dinner. my shift finished already"

The B team should be there doing extra training after serving up that dirge at fulham.

 

[sne]

24 minutes ago, screwdriver said:

can't believe Smith has been loaning out body more heath to lower league sides. all of this whilst we go crashing out of the cup!........ disgrace!

If I was a chef I would have refused to stay behind. I'd have said "oi smith no! cook your own mates their dinner. my shift finished already"

The B team should be there doing extra training after serving up that dirge at fulham.

 

Smith's the one in charge of these things? Did not know that.

Still hope Terry handles the personal tours?

 

[useless]

This time next week

[DCJonah]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

Thats rubbish.

So in taking over from the RDM debacle and gaining 24 wins during the next season was not building something ...until the club was found out to be a fraudulent administration......then granted the wheels did come off for him and we lost the team.

He wasn't among the best managers we have ever had.....but some people who claim the morale high ground of positivity, failed to see any positivity in what he did.

but are we talking about him or what he did or didn't do.......i felt a lot of criticism of Bruce was him, because 24 wins was good in anyones book.....sure the football wasn't pretty, but maybe that would have come, like folk are saying now, about the defensive side, now

He put together a squad of aging players and loan players. Which, fair enough, it was a short term goal but his 'building' of the squad is the reason we had to sign almost an entire first team in the summer. 

Now for me Smith looks and acts like the kind of manager who over a period of a few years will build something here. Bruce never looked like he could produce something that could last. And no surprise because the Sunderland fans were saying the exact same things as we ended up saying. 

[DCJonah]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

"Seemed" being the operative word.

Not at all, i saw plenty of things i wanted SB to change. I said one one occasion we have too many committed to defence to allow us to attack......The final was a damp squib too......i think me defending him on certain issues has clouded the judgement of some.

i just challenged claims against HIM I thought was unfair.

lets get this clear and in perspective.

I defended Bruce against what I thought was unfair criticisms.

I have not criticised Dean Smith directy, i have made critical observations on our play and moreover the players themselves.

there is a subtle difference if you care to look for it.

Ps did you fail to read my posts when he went after cabbagegate, i suggest you need to be less selective in which of my posts you care to read.

Exactly. Look at the level it had to reach before you would openly criticise obvious failures. You were one of the most defensive Bruce fans on here. 

And yet now, after a miracle last year and meeting his target this year, you are on at Smith more than you ever were with Bruce. I think it's 100% down to the fact that Smith has taken over from a manager you truly believed would succeed here, and after he proved what a failure he was, you now seem far more critical of the guy who came, cleaned up his mess and is trying to build something that Steve Bruce could never do here. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by DCJonah

[KentVillan]

39 minutes ago, screwdriver said:

can't believe Smith has been loaning out body more heath to lower league sides. all of this whilst we go crashing out of the cup!........ disgrace!

If I was a chef I would have refused to stay behind. I'd have said "oi smith no! cook your own mates their dinner. my shift finished already"

The B team should be there doing extra training after serving up that dirge at fulham.

 

Not sure how many Bluenoses are sharing this login, but one of you was on great form a few weeks ago - every post made me laugh. Can you bring him back please?

[TRO]

1 hour ago, markavfc40 said:

I think the problems we have now are due to the short term planning of both RDM and Bruce. You look at what Wilder has done at Sheff Utd and he built a squad that he could improve to the point that the side that played us a couple of weeks ago contained 9 players that  played last season. Wilder put in solid foundations to ensure that he didn't need a complete a overhaul when they came up it needed a few signings to complement/improve on what he had already built.

RDM/Bruce signed the likes of Jedinak, Whelan, Terry, Adomah, Elphick all players that were done in the top flight. Then we had the likes of McCormack at 29 when we signed him and who had never kicked a ball in the top flight so was never likely to make the step up with us. The rare young promising players we did sign in Hogan and Bree never improved in 2 years under Bruce instead they went backwards to the point neither are now good enough to feature even in the Championship. You then throw in the short term fixes in Snodgrass, Bolasie, Grabban, Tuenzebe, Tammy, Samba and you have a hell of a lot of players and expense in fees and wages on players that were never going to make the step up with us. The second we got promoted it was with a squad built on the foundations of sand.

Smith/Purslow/Suso have tried to both build a squad capable of keeping us up whilst signing players with their best years ahead of them that can be coached and improved over time either meaning as a squad we improve or they can be sold on at a profit and the club is able to reinvest that money. The fact they have had to do this whilst trying to compete in the toughest league in the world isn't through choice. It is due to the legacy of Bruce, RDM, Wyness and the fact that Smith produced a minor miracle and got us promoted so quickly.

I accept most of that Mark, but Dean himself said at the time of taking over he has a squad good enough for promption.....his words, not mine.

well we all know now, it had to be short term Because Xia was a fraud aided and abetted by Whyness.

i am not trying to promote Bruce here but RDM, Bruce and then Dean, all had a contribution in staving off the demise of that annus horribilus of 3 wins in a season....the road back back was incremental, I accept your criticism of too many old 'uns under Bruce, now we are saying we need a few older more experienced heads in certain positions....We can all be ver selective at times.

Dean has the luxury of a much better administration and owners to work under, so it doesn't surprise me we are showing more prudence to a long term plan.i just hope we can transform that encouragement in to the recruitment.

I accept the Chris wilder points, but doubt any of the players he chose to blend, would have worked for us, they work because of him.

I hear we are now linked with Joe Hart and Adebeyor, is they have and credence, what lessons have we learnt?

The last quarter of season Bruce had, was a Car crash admitted, but to write off his stay as all negative, i think is disingenuous.....He stopped a rot, I could not at the time see stopping, that alone deserves credit.

but to suggest from my comments, I wanted him to stay, would be wide of the mark...i have proven posts on here saying I wanted him gone after cabbagegate.

I am not targeting any particular manager, but i think over the last 3 or 4 managers we have bought some tripe?

Edited January 5, 2020 by TRO

[sne]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

I accept most of that Mark, but Dean himself said at the time of taking over he has a squad good enough for promption.....his words, not mine.

i am not trying to promote Bruce here but RDM, Bruce and then Dean, all had a contribution in staving off the demise of that annus horribilus of 3 wins in a season....the road back back was incremental, I accept your criticism of too many old 'uns under Bruce, now we are saying we need a few older more experienced heads in certain positions....We can all be ver selective at times.

Dean has the luxury of a much better administration and owners to work under, so it doesn't surprise me we are showing more prudence to a long term plan.i just hope we can transform that encouragement in to the recruitment.

I accept the Chris wilder points, but doubt any of the players he chose to blend, would have worked for us, they work because of him.

I hear we are now linked with Joe Hart and Adebeyor, is they have and credence, what lessons have we learnt?

The last quarter of season Bruce had, was a Car crash admitted, but to write off his stay as all negative, i think is disingenuous.....He stopped a rot, I could not at the time see stopping, that alone deserves credit.

but to suggest from my comments, I wanted him to stay, would be wide of the mark...i have proven posts on here saying I wanted him gone after cabbagegate.

I am not targeting any particular manager, but i think over the last 3 or 4 managers we have bought some tripe?

He's not gonna come out and say that the squad sucks now is he.

We are so obviously not interested in Adebayor. Hard is also extremely doubtful.

[Keyblade]

2 hours ago, Zatman said:

Smith has done more for Villa than Bruce ever did and in half the time but with none of the patience. I suppose some people buy into the Steve Bruce media darling bullshit and give him more rope than other managers

It's crazy. I ended up being very staunchly Bruce Out by the end and I have very little respect for him as a manager but even I gave him a free pass in his first season, and didn't get on his back in his second despite him never threatening the top 2. Smith literally performed a miracle to bring us up into the PL and he can't even catch a break in his first crack at this league. You would think we were an established PL team the way some people go on, and not a team that had no right to even be in this league if it weren't for Smith.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, foreveryoung said:

I see a team that gave a good account of themselves first game of the season against Tottenham then Liverpool without Grealish, then a more recent draw against  a confident Man U side.

Then I see fans blaming the players aren't good enough and Smith can only work with the team he has. 

Let's put it this way, I personally think the team has digressed from the beginning of the season, apart from Grealish, is this down to systems/tactics that dont work, or have the players got worse?

We can only speculate.....its an age old chesnut, is it the manager or is it the players or it it the owners.

you can only buy within a budget and if you buy badly, the owners lose the appetite for it, despite knowing the necessity.....Recruitment plays such a big part in a managers success.

I agree we played well in those games, but for whatever reason, we struggle to sustain it.

lets see if the Burnley offering, we have found something.

I have asked myself this question.....over recents years how many players have come in to us and got better.....not many....Mings, Tammy, SJM.

[TRO]

8 minutes ago, sne said:

He's not gonna come out and say that the squad sucks now is he.

We are so obviously not interested in Adebayor. Hard is also extremely doubtful.

No....but He Doesn't have to does he.?

There is enough fan experience on this site to make our own minds up.

If by going down to the ground to follow the team for the best part of 50 years and we don't know now.......we have all wasted an awful lot of money.

[markavfc40]

35 minutes ago, TRO said:

I accept most of that Mark, but Dean himself said at the time of taking over he has a squad good enough for promption.....his words, not mine.

 

I have never known a manager to come in and play down what he inherits. When Bruce himself came in he said he felt he could get us promoted in his first season. He didn't and neither did he in his next season.

A squad containing one recognised centre back in Chester and one right back/centre back in Tuenzebe was probably not well set to mount a promotion push but thankfully Smith etc righted those wrongs in January.

I am in no way as critical of Bruce as many fans are as like you I do think he served a purpose in stopping the rot of us going backwards. Due to his short term thinking/philosophy though it did mean that he left a squad of players predominately made up of a handful of loans and over the hill players with no chance of progressing and making the step up with us. 

The job of Smith/Purslow/Suso has been made harder due to the short term philosophy of their predecessors and I think when judging those at the club now it does need to be remembered what they inherited and how difficult a job they had over the summer in not just recruiting players that could hopefully keep us up but also players with their best years ahead of them that could improve over time so we didn't end up in the same position they inherited.

Edited January 5, 2020 by markavfc40

[Mjvilla]

42 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Exactly. Look at the level it had to reach before you would openly criticise obvious failures. You were one of the most defensive Bruce fans on here. 

And yet now, after a miracle last year and meeting his target this year, you are on at Smith more than you ever were with Bruce. I think it's 100% down to the fact that Smith has taken over from a manager you truly believed would succeed here, and after he proved what a failure he was, you now seem far more critical of the guy who came, cleaned up his mess and is trying to build something that Steve Bruce could never do here. 

Completely agree with this. I remember @TRO defending Bruce against grasshopper in almost every thread. I was with you on most of it too. T'is why I'm baffled by the criticism of Smith. He's done a far superior job and yet comes in for far more criticism. Then I see you commenting on the work ethic and desire of the players (which I agree upon) and it makes me think that perhaps it's a generational thing. You're more of a 'pull up your sleeves and work hard' type fan than a 'i wanna play silky football and score lots of goals' type fan. And these seem to be the different types of manager too.

It's not a criticism, just a pondering I've had reading your posts in the last 4/5 weeks. 

[Tomaszk]

1 hour ago, markavfc40 said:

I think the problems we have now are due to the short term planning of both RDM and Bruce. You look at what Wilder has done at Sheff Utd and he built a squad that he could improve to the point that the side that played us a couple of weeks ago contained 9 players that  played last season. Wilder put in solid foundations to ensure that he didn't need a complete overhaul when they came up it needed a few signings to complement/improve on what he had already built.

RDM/Bruce signed the likes of Jedinak, Whelan, Terry, Adomah, Elphick all players that were done in the top flight. Then we had the likes of McCormack at 29 when we signed him and who had never kicked a ball in the top flight so was never likely to make the step up with us. The rare young promising players we did sign in Hogan and Bree never improved in 2 years under Bruce instead they went backwards to the point neither are now deemed good enough to feature even in the Championship. You then throw in the short term fixes in Snodgrass, Bolasie, Grabban, Tuenzebe, Tammy, Samba and you have a hell of a lot of players and expense in fees and wages on players that were never going to make the step up with us. The second we got promoted it was with a squad built on the foundations of sand.

Smith/Purslow/Suso have tried to both build a squad capable of keeping us up whilst signing players with their best years ahead of them that can be coached and improved over time either meaning as a squad we improve or they can be sold on at a profit and the club is able to reinvest that money. The fact they have had to do this whilst trying to compete in the toughest league in the world isn't through choice. It is due to the legacy of Bruce, RDM, Wyness and the fact that Smith produced a minor miracle and got us promoted so quickly.

Excellent. Smack on.

Said at the time we'd feel the hangover of Bruce for years and here we are.

He returned us to exactly where he joined us, the bottom half of the championship playing terribly. Except he'd spent even more money and had built very little for the future, leaving himself and his successors an unbalanced squad.

A monkey could have done what Bruce did, and it probably would have been better to watch. Wilder joined Blades the same summer RDM came to us, wonder where we'd be in we got him in. We'd still have a scary owner though I suppose because I imagine we'd have been promoted inside two seasons.

[KentVillan]

1 minute ago, Mjvilla said:

Completely agree with this. I remember @TRO defending Bruce against grasshopper in almost every thread. I was with you on most of it too. T'is why I'm baffled by the criticism of Smith. He's done a far superior job and yet comes in for far more criticism. Then I see you commenting on the work ethic and desire of the players (which I agree upon) and it makes me think that perhaps it's a generational thing. You're more of a 'pull up your sleeves and work hard' type fan than a 'i wanna play silky football and score lots of goals' type fan. And these seem to be the different types of manager too.

It's not a criticism, just a pondering I've had reading your posts in the last 4/5 weeks. 

This isn’t intended as a dig at @TRO who I think does also appreciate good technical football, but there is a huge correlation between not liking Smith and having a fetish for blood and thunder, kick and rush, percentage football.

[TRO]

44 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Exactly. Look at the level it had to reach before you would openly criticise obvious failures. You were one of the most defensive Bruce fans on here. 

And yet now, after a miracle last year and meeting his target this year, you are on at Smith more than you ever were with Bruce. I think it's 100% down to the fact that Smith has taken over from a manager you truly believed would succeed here, and after he proved what a failure he was, you now seem far more critical of the guy who came, cleaned up his mess and is trying to build something that Steve Bruce could never do here. 

Oh, so its question of timing now.....you really are too much.

yes I was, fir folk like you failing to see ANY good whatsoever.

did you miss his signing of John mcGinn or Tammy, both instrumental in our promotion or John Terry as an association/ introduction......are you blind?

you might hate him, but face facts....he brought some good players in, despite failing to get promotion.

They are both presiding over different times in the recover of our demise, so there is bound to be differences, Deans got better owners too.

I am going to say this for the last time.....I have commented on shortfalls or flaws that the team has shown over the season, some improvements have been made, some have not.....I have rarely criticised Dean Smith directly, whether you can handle that I don't know......but I have said enough on Steve Bruce as I'm sure you are well versed and he isn't here to hang anymore....its over.

We have a new manager now.

 

[TRO]

28 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

I have never known a manager to come in and play down what he inherits. When Bruce himself came in he said he felt he could get us promoted in his first season. He didn't and neither did he in his next season.

A squad containing one recognised centre back in Chester and one right back/centre back in Tuenzebe was probably not well set to mount a promotion push but thankfully Smith etc righted those wrongs in January.

I am in no way as critical of Bruce as many fans are as like you I do think he served a purpose in stopping the rot of us going backwards. Due to his short term thinking/philosophy though it did mean that he left a squad of players made up of a handful of loans and over the hill players with no chance of progressing and making the step up with us. 

The job of Smith/Purslow/Suso has been made harder due to the short term philosophy of their predecessors and I think when judging those at the club now it does need to be remembered what they inherited and how difficult a job they had over the summer in not just recruiting players that could hopefully keep us up but also players with their best years ahead of them that could improve over time so we didn't end up in the same position they inherited.

I think its like a jigsaw, its was incomplete and the failed promotion, threw up all kinds of things that was unfinished, only to find it was all built on sand, so he couldn,t replace who he wanted.....we couldn't pay the tax bill and we talk about centre backs, he never knew if he had the job and lost his family......come on Mark, you're better than that.....these were very unusual circumstances, not a normal summer.

also we can now see why there was a short term policy and we bought players according to the instructions.

Well Dean did fix it , and i am grateful to him for doing so,but he was there to do it, and was backed financially, so thats moot.

I have wrote enough on Bruce to fill a manuscript.....he didn't have owners like now, but look I am not going to change folks opinions and despite me being in the minority on here.....I feel as resolute on the things i have said about him and I repeat its him i have defended, not necessarily his football.

His football was not encouraging, but he brought in some good players that Dean himself has shown his gratitude for, that does not go unnoticed for me in our recovery.

I think i have said enough on this.

Edited January 5, 2020 by TRO

[markavfc40]

24 minutes ago, TRO said:

 

I have wrote enough on Bruce to fill a manuscript.....he didn't have owners like now, 

 

I don't want this to turn into a Bruce thread but I can't have this Bruce was hard done by in comparison to Smith bollocks. Bruce had owners for the level we were competing at that allowed him to spend money on fees and especially wages no other manager at that level could dream of. Terry 80k a week, Bolasie similar, Snodgrass 50k a week, Whelan 40k a week, Grabban, Tammy, Elmo, Lansbury 30k+ a week. The fact the owner at the time was spending money way beyond his and our means doesn't change the fact it allowed Bruce to bring in the kind of players he did.

Under Bruce we spent a hell of a lot of money on players that were either not ours or players who would have zero sell on value. Mistakes that it appears we are trying to ensure we don't make again by in the main signing players on the up, with their best years ahead of them who we can improve over time.

Edited January 5, 2020 by markavfc40

[Zatman]

33 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

Excellent. Smack on.

Said at the time we'd feel the hangover of Bruce for years and here we are.

 

Its one of reasons I would be so against Allardyce as well. We need to evolve