Dean Smith

[MotoMkali]

51 minutes ago, TRO said:

It always fascinates me when folk resort back to money spent on players when justifying performances.....and explaining levels of mitigation, or why we can't do certain things

I have never been SO convinced about it as much as some are.....I understand the economics and understand the need to spend/invest....but I am more focused on the right players as opposed to just expensive signings....some times you have to spend big, but not always....look at Leicester sell Maguire and Bring in Soyuncu.....with a possible £ 60 million equitable advantage.

There have been lots of examples of players going on to great things and costing very little in transfer fee's i.e Cantona, Kompany and even our own Dwight Yorke and John McGinn

It is also interesting how we spent 130-14 mill in the summer and yet Leicesters team that we humbled to on Sunday cost £170 mill to assemble.

Its the recruitment that is the crucial element in all this.....and I am still unconvinced by it, but we keep an open mind.....We are too much hit and miss and possibly more miss than hit.

 

They spent 170 million on like 6 players everyone else they either got really lucky with their prices or were a youth product. Iheanacho, Maddison, Tielemans 100 million for those 3 pereira another 25.

[KentVillan]

You can't compare us with Leicester, who won the league a few seasons ago and have been able to cash in on players like Kante, Mahrez, and Maguire, and also have one of the all-time greatest signings in Jamie Vardy.

We're about 5 years behind them. The market has inflated loads in the meantime, so we had to pay a premium in summer 2019. I'm pretty sure our £140m spend will look like chicken feed in a few years.

I think our only real mistake in the transfer market was to completely rule out a loan signing or an experienced outfield player. A wiser head (like a Cambiasso or a Moutinho) might have brought a bit more of an ability to see out difficult matches. I don't know how much this was Dean Smith's fault, or how much it was a policy that came from Purslow (from listening to interviews, it sounds like Purslow is big on only buying "investments", but DS is on board with the strategy).

If we stay up, the strategy will look like genius, as I think if we stay up this year, we're Premier League for the foreseeable future. If we go down, people might ask why we didn't show a bit more pragmatism in our first season back.

P.S. This thread is becoming quite unreadable at times. Is it really necessary to spam a whole page with multiple posts? Can't you write it all in one post so others have a chance to contribute?

Edited December 12, 2019 by KentVillan

[HKP90]

Our recent run of games have been against Man City, Liverpool, Wolves, Newcastle, Man U, Chelsea and Leicester.

That's a tough schedule. The only fixtures of those where realistically we should be expecting to take points would be newcastle (which we won) and wolves (which was admittedly disappointing after the cup win). We got spanked by Leicester who everyone are now saying are the only realistic challengers to Liverpool (who we ran very close). We drew with Man U and could have won it. Man city are Man city.

Point is, we've been competitive in most games against top sides. It's not realistic to be expecting us to beat those teams. Anything we get is a bonus. Four points from the above games is not catastrophic, particularly given how we've generally been playing. 

What we get from the next few games- Sheffield, Southampton, Norwich, Watford and Burnley will be much, much more revealing, and I expect us to be comfortably above the relegation zone after those games. If we're not, then we might need to start thinking about where we need to strengthen in Jan.   

Context is everything, people. If we're gonna judge our progress by how we do against title contender, well guess what, we're gonna fall short.  

[Dave-R]

42 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

You can't compare us with Leicester, who won the league a few seasons ago and have been able to cash in on players like Kante, Mahrez, and Maguire, and also have one of the all-time greatest signings in Jamie Vardy.

We're about 5 years behind them. The market has inflated loads in the meantime, so we had to pay a premium in summer 2019. I'm pretty sure our £140m spend will look like chicken feed in a few years.

I think our only real mistake in the transfer market was to completely rule out a loan signing or an experienced outfield player. A wiser head (like a Cambiasso or a Moutinho) might have brought a bit more of an ability to see out difficult matches. I don't know how much this was Dean Smith's fault, or how much it was a policy that came from Purslow (from listening to interviews, it sounds like Purslow is big on only buying "investments", but DS is on board with the strategy).

If we stay up, the strategy will look like genius, as I think if we stay up this year, we're Premier League for the foreseeable future. If we go down, people might ask why we didn't show a bit more pragmatism in our first season back.

P.S. This thread is becoming quite unreadable at times. Is it really necessary to spam a whole page with multiple posts? Can't you write it all in one post so others have a chance to contribute?

I think we planned cheaper because we had to plan for the worse as much as we did if we got our survival on come end of season. No point going all out and buying 40+mill players in a first season back in the top flight when we all know not many clubs survive in a first season. We've spent the most without a doubt out of the three clubs that went up, no question, but if we get relegated I'm almost 100% next season in the champ that we will win that league and bounce back up, to me that's not such a bad thing to happen.

If we survive this season I think we will see a rise in spending on signings, the club and owners will feel alot more secure and established all while feeling things are moving in the right direction.

Leicester have more than bounced back from there bad times, took them a whole decade to earn promotion back to top flight football. Since then I must say they have taken football by storm winning the title a season later, amazing stuff that. I doubt we will be anything like Leicester, with them was it luck or fantastic managing who knows but things went there way that's all that is known.

I'm pretty sure if we tighten up at the back and sort the leaks out, we would be more than winning half the battle, the other half is finding the right players and I'm mixed about that one too. We all know not every signing works out, we do have a very nice squad but if our players are not careful they will soon be in a fight for survival without any choice. Right now our players have more than a choice, they have time and they can go out there and choose to make life simpler by winning these games and showing us fans they are deserved of staying in this league. They have to want it more than there opposition and at the moment I feel that's not happening. Our lads also have a tough problem where they have to make everything count, other teams are doing it against us and our lads are struggling to put whatever they throw at there goal away and bringing home a win. The amount of games we've seen where statistics have seen us on top but the game itself hasn't reflected it is unreal, we miss more than half of what we throw at keepers, crosses go no where and passes are guided into opposition, everything needs to be more on point. I am not a Coach, so I don't know why our players have a fall off when it comes to there games, if training goes well then why do we fall in our games, there is alot to look at and take into account. I can only hope that things pull together before it gets so worse they are forced to fight the struggle for survival because there's no more room for errors.

[TRO]

22 hours ago, KentVillan said:

You can't compare us with Leicester, who won the league a few seasons ago and have been able to cash in on players like Kante, Mahrez, and Maguire, and also have one of the all-time greatest signings in Jamie Vardy.

We're about 5 years behind them. The market has inflated loads in the meantime, so we had to pay a premium in summer 2019. I'm pretty sure our £140m spend will look like chicken feed in a few years.

I think our only real mistake in the transfer market was to completely rule out a loan signing or an experienced outfield player. A wiser head (like a Cambiasso or a Moutinho) might have brought a bit more of an ability to see out difficult matches. I don't know how much this was Dean Smith's fault, or how much it was a policy that came from Purslow (from listening to interviews, it sounds like Purslow is big on only buying "investments", but DS is on board with the strategy).

If we stay up, the strategy will look like genius, as I think if we stay up this year, we're Premier League for the foreseeable future. If we go down, people might ask why we didn't show a bit more pragmatism in our first season back.

P.S. This thread is becoming quite unreadable at times. Is it really necessary to spam a whole page with multiple posts? Can't you write it all in one post so others have a chance to contribute?

Presumably you are referring to me....

I can compare us to Leicester in some issues and not in others. where development is concerned, sure they are ahead of us, their recruitment is significantly better too..I think your point about a wiser head in the middle, like you have said,is worth noting.

It might be worth noting the Manager himself has now, started to focus his remarks more on the defending of the team, something I have been remarking on for a while now.

PS If you don't want to read it ,don't....just move on...but in answer to your question. IMO there are many issues to debate, if you put them all on one page its sounds like a moan or an attack on everything.....that is not the purpose.The purpose is to highlight the things that are holding us back....as for your last offering, its laughable.....do you honestly think, i can inhibit folk from writing on here....its a free world up here, where you're from,might be different

PPS  Do you want me to compare us with Watford or Brighton or are they ahead of us too?

There's free space now, fill your boots.

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by TRO

[Johnnyp]

4 hours ago, TRO said:

so you don't think Biesla instils aggression in to the Leeds team?.....if so, you need to think again.

Ron Saunders wasn't a shouter or bawler....you don't have to be....but discipline and a certain approach to aggression, is what's needed......amongst many other things of course.

My point was in reference to the person highlighting everton's level of aggression against Chelsea. How do we know anything really about the type of coach Ferguson is. Bielsa absolutely instills aggression and discipline into his team but he doesn't go face first into a match with that as his trump card. Its sandwiched in between hours and hours of incredibly detailed tactics and he's just a really good coach. 

[Johnnyp]

4 hours ago, TRO said:

It always fascinates me when folk resort back to money spent on players when justifying performances.....and explaining levels of mitigation, or why we can't do certain things

I have never been SO convinced about it as much as some are.....I understand the economics and understand the need to spend/invest....but I am more focused on the right players as opposed to just expensive signings....some times you have to spend big, but not always....look at Leicester sell Maguire and Bring in Soyuncu.....with a possible £ 60 million equitable advantage.

There have been lots of examples of players going on to great things and costing very little in transfer fee's i.e Cantona, Kompany and even our own Dwight Yorke and John McGinn

It is also interesting how we spent 130-14 mill in the summer and yet Leicesters team that we humbled to on Sunday cost £170 mill to assemble.

Its the recruitment that is the crucial element in all this.....and I am still unconvinced by it, but we keep an open mind.....We are too much hit and miss and possibly more miss than hit.

 

Good post TRO. Where do you think the crux of the blame lies with how poorly we have recruited ( and i believe we have ) Valid questions for fans to be asking. Pitarch's CV is sketchy at best. He's left a mess behind at a few jobs. Smith has to hold his hand up too.

[TRO]

5 minutes ago, Johnnyp said:

Good post TRO. Where do you think the crux of the blame lies with how poorly we have recruited ( and i believe we have ) Valid questions for fans to be asking. Pitarch's CV is sketchy at best. He's left a mess behind at a few jobs. Smith has to hold his hand up too.

I don't Know...I don't know how many people are involved in the process or what the ultimate motivation is or who is the biggest influence is, if its a committee.

I also think, that if signings come off, the owners are probably forcing money in to your hand, if they don't come off, the reluctance develops......I think this window, we will see that....not criticising, just being honest.

I worry sometimes, about the characteristics of the signings, always looking at talent and not much further, not saying talent is a bad thing far from it, but you need more, like application and drive......we always seem to be linked with wingers or lightweight midfielders, it's just how it appears to me....always superstars, until they come.....Bolasie was this will o' the wisp and then splat, another player failing to get in a game.

 

[TRO]

21 minutes ago, Johnnyp said:

My point was in reference to the person highlighting everton's level of aggression against Chelsea. How do we know anything really about the type of coach Ferguson is. Bielsa absolutely instills aggression and discipline into his team but he doesn't go face first into a match with that as his trump card. Its sandwiched in between hours and hours of incredibly detailed tactics and he's just a really good coach. 

You're right....but just because, I highlight aggression, don't think it's because I think it's all we need.....I am just saying IMO, we lack it......and I happen to think its crucial to our survival.

The thing is John.....it's like Bacon & Eggs......all the top coaches ,who  create all these incredibly detailed tactics incorporate Aggression in there as a crucial ingredient in their formula.....I mention it a lot, because I think its one thing we have missing.

Klopp-Pep-Mourinho all profess it......The late great Ron Saunders had it central to his thinking.....Brian Clough was a proponent of it......They all know you have to have aggression.....Now, I know some will say we have, when in the main we haven't....or more accurately not enough or consistently enough.

Against Man City....Pep Guardiola admitted he got in to them and said " if you play like the first half, we will be facing a relegation battle, not a title challenge" that's what he saw from his team and that's how important he seen it....the rest is history as they say.

Look, I don't mind folk ignoring my plea's.....I say it so often, because I passionately believe ,we lack it......and the truth will be revealed in the fullness of time.

 

[Johnnyp]

10 minutes ago, TRO said:

I don't Know...I don't know how many people are involved in the process or what the ultimate motivation is or who is the biggest influence is, if its a committee.

I also think, that if signings come off, the owners are probably forcing money in to your hand, if they don't come off, the reluctance develops......I think this window, we will see that....not criticising, just being honest.

I worry sometimes, about the characteristics of the signings, always looking at talent and not much further, not saying talent is a bad thing far from it, but you need more, like application and drive......we always seem to be linked with wingers or lightweight midfielders, it's just how it appears to me....always superstars, until they come.....Bolasie was this will o' the wisp and then splat, another player failing to get in a game.

 

Totally get the application thing. We probably get rid of good people, characters and guys with a genuine desire to improve too soon ( Davis, Hogg and Mason ) i do think we jumped the gun the latter when you consider Justin tore it up at Luton last season and Mason is playing great now. We can't seem to strike a balance between talent and total application.

[TRO]

26 minutes ago, Johnnyp said:

Totally get the application thing. We probably get rid of good people, characters and guys with a genuine desire to improve too soon ( Davis, Hogg and Mason ) i do think we jumped the gun the latter when you consider Justin tore it up at Luton last season and Mason is playing great now. We can't seem to strike a balance between talent and total application.

anyone who seems dogged,or combative, we seem to think they lack talent....that's how it seems to me.

for example.......I  think many folk would not fancy any players from Sheff Utd or be considered for our team......yet I think it will be a tough game Saturday.

but we must win, because Newcastle did

Edited December 12, 2019 by TRO

[Johnnyp]

14 minutes ago, TRO said:

anyone who seems dogged,or combative, we seem to think they lack talent....that's how it seems to me.

for example.......I  think many folk would not fancy any players from Sheff Utd or be considered for our team......yet I think it will be a tough game Saturday.

What would we pay for Stevens in the current market ? He barely got a look in when we had him. I still dont think we have a clear identity with how we want to play, and im talking desire and application here not just talent. It's all a bit mish mash. The football has been quite poor and the recruitment questionable at best.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Johnnyp
...

[TRO]

7 minutes ago, Johnnyp said:

What would we pay for Stevens in the current market ? He barely got a look in when we had him. I still dont think we have a clear identity with how we want to play, and im talking desire and application here not just talent. It's all a bit mish mash. The football has been quite been and the recruitment questionable at best.

Well, Stevens was just binned as not good enough with our lot at the time, you're right.

I don't want to go OTT here, but we look too much like Brentford to me......great attacking, but left wanting in defence.

I am hoping, judging by his comments that he can see it....whether he will or can do anything about it, I don't know.

 

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by TRO

[Johnnyp]

Still the get impression (and this is a cultural thing rather than any one individual manager), players seem to kick back and think they've made it when they join us. Now that's not every player obviously. Purslow spoke about we look at the characters of these people before we sign them. Now, anyone can be an expert with the benefit of hindsight after the business we've done this summer but look at Wesley. His football aside, he looks very sulky, attitude needs modifying clearly, had a moan about the Birmingham weather i think already. Do alarm bells not ring for people making these calls. Do your homework on people. Ok, they have to be able to play obviously but look at someone like Chester. Absolute fantastic piece of business and the previous regime should be applauded for it. Solid defender. Total pro. Committed. No interest in social media or any of that crap.

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, Johnnyp said:

Still the get impression (and this is a cultural thing rather than any one individual manager), players seem to kick back and think they've made it when they join us. Now that's not every player obviously. Purslow spoke about we look at the characters of these people before we sign them. Now, anyone can be an expert with the benefit of hindsight after the business we've done this summer but look at Wesley. His football aside, he looks very sulky, attitude needs modifying clearly, had a moan about the Birmingham weather i think already. Do alarm bells not ring for people making these calls. Do your homework on people. Ok, they have to be able to play obviously but look at someone like Chester. Absolute fantastic piece of business and the previous regime should be applauded for it. Solid defender. Total pro. Committed. No interest in social media or any of that crap.

I think you have a point.

In the main......I want to be grateful for having a player join us ....not them grateful for landing here.

obviously that does not apply to a little gem we may have dug up, from the lower leagues....it applies to main stream signings, who we are looking to make a difference with.

[MotoMkali]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

Presumably you are referring to me....

I can compare us to Leicester in some issues and not in others where development is concerned, sure they are ahead of us, there recruitment is significantly better too..I think your point about a wiser head in the middle like you have said,is worth noting.

It might be worth noting the Manager himself has now, started to focus his remarks more on the defending of the team, something I have been remarking on for a while now.

PS If you don't want to read it ,don't....just move on...but in answer to your question. IMO there are many issues to debate, if you put them all one one page its sounds like a moan or an attack on everything.....that is not the purpose.The purpose is to highlight the things that are holding us back....as for your last offering, its laughable.....do you honestly think, i can inhibit folk from writing on here....its a free world up here, where your from,might be different

ppsDo you want me to compare us with Watford or Brighton or are they ahead of us too?

There's free space now, fill your boots.

 

You can't compare us to Leicester because when they were in the championship they had a competent manager and owner for the full season they went and up (and presumably before) they took risks on players some failed some succeeded like vardy, Schmeichel, drinkwater, Albrighton, matty James, mahrez before they even got promoted. They had 6 or 7 starting 11 players from the team that got promoted. We have really 1 player of that quality grealish and 3 maybes with mings, mcginn and el ghazi and 2 of them only technically signed this year. All of them are deeply floored but can get better but we were no where even close to Leicester. 

[MotoMkali]

51 minutes ago, Johnnyp said:

Still the get impression (and this is a cultural thing rather than any one individual manager), players seem to kick back and think they've made it when they join us. Now that's not every player obviously. Purslow spoke about we look at the characters of these people before we sign them. Now, anyone can be an expert with the benefit of hindsight after the business we've done this summer but look at Wesley. His football aside, he looks very sulky, attitude needs modifying clearly, had a moan about the Birmingham weather i think already. Do alarm bells not ring for people making these calls. Do your homework on people. Ok, they have to be able to play obviously but look at someone like Chester. Absolute fantastic piece of business and the previous regime should be applauded for it. Solid defender. Total pro. Committed. No interest in social media or any of that crap.

I think the comment about the weather was him comparing it to where he has played before in Slovakia. I don't think he knew the weather wouldn't be as bad as it is there. Also wesley is clearly friendly with the other guys and has worked very hard on his English and likely knows 3 or 4 other languages at least passably. 

[sheepyvillian]

17 hours ago, KentVillan said:

They've beaten Leicester, Man City, and Spurs and drawn with Liverpool at Old Trafford this season. So not a bad achievement.

Anyway, I wasn't suggesting it merited a trophy parade through Birmingham, just that some of the doom and gloom in this thread seems a bit forgetful.

 

On the contrary, I was frustrated at our application in the Chelsea and Leicester games, considering how well we played at Old Trafford. It's imperative that we're up for every game in this league. 

[TRO]

17 hours ago, sheepyvillian said:

On the contrary, I was frustrated at our application in the Chelsea and Leicester games, considering how well we played at Old Trafford. It's imperative that we're up for every game in this league. 

Totally agree..

unfortunately some folk are not reading my posts correctly and have their own agenda.

that's exactly what I am getting at.

Leicester may have a super side and their quality players are better than ours and their culture is more established......what I was trying to get over was that they don't have a monopoly on Desire, application and willingness to compete for every ball.....its clearly lost on some folk.

present company excluded.

Ps I thought we did ok against Newcastle, not just because we won,but because we was " at it" ....some said Newcastle was rubbish, I disagreed, it was because we went for it more and applied ourselves better....they then went on to beat Sheff Utd away and did a job on them....I knew they wasn't rubbish.

Edited December 13, 2019 by TRO

[Vive_La_Villa]

A few weeks ago our recruitment team was being massively praised. Now it’s the cause of all our problems. 
 

By the end of the month it will be massively praised again I’m sure.