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On 06/11/2019 at 10:41, Philosopher said:

I'm fine with criticism if it's fair. The goals conceded against Liverpool can happen to anyone. We have a very Young team, very little premiership experience, and the team Grealish and McGinn apart haven't even been with us a year. Smith has barely been here a year and everything has changed in that time. The squad, management, scouting, coaches.

I am reserving much of my criticisms until I feel the team has had enough time to properly gel and start playing the way smith wants them to play. My main criticism is a lack of tactical discipline from McGinn and El-Ghazi, because they have been here long enough. Having said that much of this is down to experience. So I cut them that slack. Mings has made a bad mistake in almost every game, but the rest of his displays have been exceptional, and much of his mistakes are just part of learning.

Wesley has been the main recipient of criticism, but quite frankly he is the guy with the most pressure and the hardest task. Lone striker, our team have spent to majority of matches without the ball and in our own half. Not knowing the language, the football mentality and style of england, and new team, but still managing a respectable goals return and showing some very nice flashes of quality. 

The point me and other make is not to not criticize, but to put it into context, and then we understand that what this team need most is not criticism from fans, but understanding that they need time and to stick with them and be unwavering in our support for this time that they need.  Like others have said come January / February time if we haven't observed any improvements then we can justifiably start to voice our concerns and criticisms.

But right now yours and other criticisms, just sound like the incessant moaning of unhappy people (sounds like, I'm not saying that is the case or even that I believe it to be just how it comes across). 

I think part of the fun and satisfaction is to identify the shortfalls and see them disappear in the fullness of time......its a forum, that what folk do, discuss.

The stadium is the place for undying support and a tourniquet on criticism......and that is exactly what is happening.

If some fans are interpretting obsevations as criticisms, thats their call and for them to deal with.....my guess is EVERY Villa fan wants us to do well.

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On 06/11/2019 at 13:17, MotoMkali said:

I don't think it is mentality issue it is a fitness issue and a tactics issue. First and foremost is mcginn. Once we get to 70 minutes mcginn should be off the pitch. At this point he can't run and it leads to the opponent easily keeping possession in our 3rd as he can't close opponents down. We also lose a lot of movement from our full backs at this point and certainly helps in keeping us pinned back. 

2nd you are right we are playing hoofball but that happens half the time with us even when we aren't on the back foot and that is unacceptable. The way I see it we have a couple of options. First we need to utilise the full width of the pitch. Our wingers should be on the bylines when we win the ball in our third so that if they get caught with the ball it will end up out for a throw in 9/10 times. This will give us a breather and let us get back into shape. On top of that it will let us break quickly if the wingers aren't tackled and will force the opposition back. I also think wes needs to drop deeper between the midfield and the centre half's and drift out wide this will mean if someone picks him up they are out of position allowing an easier counter for us. If not he is in free space and we can more easily keep the ball rather than just hoofing it which only succeeds at getting one of their centre halves to collect the ball and play it back to a midfielder.

I think your first paragraph has validity and creedence something my season tiicket holding wife has been barking at me, all season.....much yo my dismay, because, I love SJM as do all fans, including opposition fans.

Having played the game back......I have to concede she and you, have a point.

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1 minute ago, TRO said:

I think your first paragraph has validity and creedence something my season tiicket holding wife has been barking at me, all season.....much yo my dismay, because, I love SJM as do all fans, including opposition fans.

Having played the game back......I have to concede she and you, have a point.

We love his endeavour but he needs to be smarter about when to closes down and press from the front. There was a few incidents when he tried to close down Alison when there was no chance he would get there and whilst it’s great to see it’s inevitable he will have nothing left in the tank for the last 20 minutes or so when chasing from midfield that way all game. 

It would be great if we had striker that can chase down players the same way. 

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3 minutes ago, TRO said:

I think your first paragraph has validity and creedence something my season tiicket holding wife has been barking at me, all season.....much yo my dismay, because, I love SJM as do all fans, including opposition fans.

Having played the game back......I have to concede she and you, have a point.

Mcginns work rate is his greatest asset and his biggest weakness. In the first half it makes him one of the most effective players on the pitch. In the second half he is tired a lot slower and lazy with his tackles. To me a lot of the challenges he gets booked on come in the second half where he has gotten there late and follows through because it is easier rather than chasing after the ball. It also contributes to him burning out later in the season where he picks up more and more cards like when he got suspended after 10 cards. I also think he picked up 2 cards in the games jack missed in the 10 game run because he had to work harder. 

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56 minutes ago, MotoMkali said:

Mcginns work rate is his greatest asset and his biggest weakness. In the first half it makes him one of the most effective players on the pitch. In the second half he is tired a lot slower and lazy with his tackles. To me a lot of the challenges he gets booked on come in the second half where he has gotten there late and follows through because it is easier rather than chasing after the ball. It also contributes to him burning out later in the season where he picks up more and more cards like when he got suspended after 10 cards. I also think he picked up 2 cards in the games jack missed in the 10 game run because he had to work harder. 

good observations.

maybe we need a Frank Carradus or Des Bremner for the squad.

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1 hour ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

We love his endeavour but he needs to be smarter about when to closes down and press from the front. There was a few incidents when he tried to close down Alison when there was no chance he would get there and whilst it’s great to see it’s inevitable he will have nothing left in the tank for the last 20 minutes or so when chasing from midfield that way all game. 

It would be great if we had striker that can chase down players the same way. 

That too is a good point.

I am not saying we can find an off the shelf Vardy.....but someone with that kind of energy and tenacity, would be valuable for the diversity of the squad.

I still think Wes will ultimately prove to be a good signing.....but I think he may have too much responsibilty for results and such young/inexperienced (in this league) resting on his shoulders....right now.

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1 hour ago, TRO said:

I think part of the fun and satisfaction is to identify the shortfalls and see them disappear in the fullness of time......its a forum, that what folk do, discuss.

The stadium is the place for undying support and a tourniquet on criticism......and that is exactly what is happening.

If some fans are interpretting obsevations as criticisms, thats their call and for them to deal with.....my guess is EVERY Villa fan wants us to do well.

I wouldn't disagree. Like is said nothing wrong with criticism if it's  fair and constructive. 

For me part of the problem is that people are making judgements based on their current criticisms which it is far to early to do. 

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3 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

I wouldn't disagree. Like is said nothing wrong with criticism if it's  fair and constructive. 

For me part of the problem is that people are making judgements based on their current criticisms which it is far to early to do. 

My view is .....some folk talk about the match and get quoted the season or the last 12 months.

surely, we can talk about the shortfalls or mistakes,in a game...... without being ungrateful for the season.

If we see things we should be able to reference it, with immunity from being a miserable fan.

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4 hours ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Both can be true though. 

It is a success that we didn't get thrashed by Liverpool, but we also can't keep dropping points from winning positions like that. 

It's not really "dropping" points when it's Liverpool though and that's the point. They're just levels better than us. They had an extra gear in stoppage time that we didn't have.

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7 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

It's not really "dropping" points when it's Liverpool though and that's the point. They're just levels better than us. They had an extra gear in stoppage time that we didn't have.

I disagree. If we're in a winning position by the 85th minute against any team, only to lose the match by the end, I view it as dropping points that should've been in the bag.

Plus, it wasn't an extra gear by Liverpool that cost us the match anyway. They were battering us throughout the entire second half.

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1 minute ago, Laughable Chimp said:

I disagree. If we're in a winning position by the 85th minute against any team, only to lose it by the end of the match, I view it as dropping points that should've been in the bag.

I don't see why which minute we concede in makes a difference (against teams like Liverpool at least). If we're always conceding in stoppage time (a la under Di Matteo) then there's a problem, but against Liverpool it doesn't make a difference. They could have been 2 up by the 60th minute if luck went their way. They keep going until the end, this isn't the first time them or City have scored in stoppage time. If we concede to Wolves on Sunday in stoppage time, that's points dropped to me...not against Liverpool.

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23 hours ago, terrytini said:

In the main, those who are not criticising are seeing, and are fully aware, of the same issues and ‘problems’ as those that keep pointing them out.

Its just that given

 (a) many of them are common to many teams

(b) we came up through the Play Offs,

(c) have only had our Manager for around 40 games,

(d) have only had most this squad for a dozen games,

(e) have been competitive in every game,

(f) are playing some of the most attractive football we’ve played for years

(g) genuinely seem to have a Club, a Board, and a Coaching staff who all seem to know what they are doing ...

...... it maybe isn’t necessary to come on after every setback listing the things that aren’t going how we'd like.

This is exactly it.

So many of the people criticising think they are bravely holding the team to account, saying the things other people are too scared to point out.

But it's more that we're realistic about what is achievable at this stage in the Purslow/Suso/Smith project. It's always going to be two steps forward, one step back, and there will always be games where we are either outclassed or get out of the wrong side of bed.

What frustrates me the most is the goldfish-brained short-termism of it all. I see a club that is generally moving in the right direction, and that was happy to have picked up 6 points before the City and Liverpool games, knowing that we'd probably lose both of them.

Then when we unsurprisingly lose to both of those teams (without being humiliated, and with a lot of fans being impressed with our performances) the whingers break cover and act as though it's a huge disaster, meriting several new signings in January, and potentially even calling Smith's tenure into question.

It's not brave, or brutally honest, or whatever, it's just predictable and irritating. And so often it's badly argued and evidenced. When people come back at you with facts and statistics, you just move on to the next target. So far this season I've seen the same small set of VT posters call for Grealish, then Engels, then Mings, and now McGinn all to be dropped. They've all since delivered MOTM performances.

The fact is a football match only lasts 90 minutes, and with football being a low-scoring game, there is usually a fair bit of luck going into the result. A player picks up a minor niggle in training on the Friday or gets a bad night's sleep, and suddenly you find them having a bad game. It really isn't something the manager should be reacting to unless it becomes a long-term trend.

So as someone else said, it's all about context. The context at Villa is that we were always going to be a team that would do better in the second half of the season, once the new players have bedded into Smith's system and philosophy, and adapted to how their teammates play. We are currently on track for roughly a point per game, and so any improvement on that will see us start to climb towards mid-table. I think it all points to Dean Smith having done a very good job so far.

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7 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

I don't see why which minute we concede in makes a difference (against teams like Liverpool at least). If we're always conceding in stoppage time (a la under Di Matteo) then there's a problem, but against Liverpool it doesn't make a difference. They could have been 2 up by the 60th minute if luck went their way. They keep going until the end, this isn't the first time them or City have scored in stoppage time. If we concede to Wolves on Sunday in stoppage time, that's points dropped to me...not against Liverpool.

It does because to me, the definition of dropping points depends on what we expect to gain out of the match. This obviously can change during the course of the match compared to before the match.

If we battered Liverpool pillar to post despite Liverpool having every right to do that to us and we still lose the match, I'd view it as us dropping points because by all right, we should've gotten points off them. 

Similarly, Liverpool were all over us for the second half of the match but by the 85th minute, the expectation was we should've come out with at least a point. The fact that we somehow came out with nothing is to me, points dropped. This is obviously not the case if Liverpool scored their goal in the first minute and we both played like we did.

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1 minute ago, Keyblade said:

It's not really "dropping" points when it's Liverpool though and that's the point. They're just levels better than us. They had an extra gear in stoppage time that we didn't have.

This is where the argument is tricky....It is interesting IMO.

They did have an extra gear or a conservation of energy or a will see the job through.....its an opinion as to what it was.

I think its only natural for a bunch of fans to be disappointed in conceding such a well fought game with 3 natural minutes to go.....Its hard for us to comprehend the dynamics of tiredness.....but for me, I saw avoidable levels of organisation, not necesaarily tiredness, but I will be corrected.....headed goals do seem to be an achilles to me.

you cannot just ignore the fact that their undoubted skill, will, experience, endeavour, passing and moving ability, call it all what you will failed to register the goal they so desperatley wanted.....That is the fact of the matter.....Whatever to they did to get 2 goals in 8 minutes, they failed to do in 87 minutes......such is the deabte of their skill level in this game alone.....They did not want to leave it that late, for sure.

I am not in a position to argue the dynamics of energy and tiredness in a game, I am not qualified to do so.....but what I can say is we have conceded in the last 10 minutes on many occasions, in fact 44% of our conceded goals are in the last 10 minutes.....I have a suspicion why that is, but not a conclusive opinion.

The feature of us conceding as we did,against such a great team, has not been confined to this game alone....if it was the debate would not have the same legs.

 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, TRO said:

This is where the argument is tricky....It is interesting IMO.

They did have an extra gear or a conservation of energy or a will see the job through.....its an opinion as to what it was.

I think its only natural for a bunch of fans to be disappointed in conceding such a well fought game with 3 natural minutes to go.....Its hard for us to comprehend the dynamics of tiredness.....but for me, I saw avoidable levels of organisation, not necesaarily tiredness, but I will be corrected.....headed goals do seem to be an achilles to me.

you cannot just ignore the fact that their undoubted skill, will, experience, endeavour, passing and moving ability, call it all what you will failed to register the goal they so desperatley wanted.....That is the fact of the matter.....Whatever to they did to get 2 goals in 8 minutes, they failed to do in 87 minutes......such is the deabte of their skill level in this game alone.....They did not want to leave it that late, for sure.

I am not in a position to argue the dynamics of energy and tiredness in a game, I am not qualified to do so.....but what I can say is we have conceded in the last 10 minutes on many occasions, in fact 44% of our conceded goals are in the last 10 minutes.....I have a suspicion why that is, but not a conclusive opinion.

The feature of us conceding as we did,against such a great team, has not been confined to this game alone....if it was the debate would not have the same legs.

 

 

 

 

9 of the 11 points we dropped from winning positions (the stat that is always brought up) were against Spurs, Arsenal and Liverpool. The other 2 came against Burnley. We don't often drop points against teams around us.

It was very obvious by the 80th minute that many of our players were dead on their heels. Our front three were just spent. Liverpool's fitness and athleticism is just better than ours. They kept pushing until the end and had the stamina to do so. Same thing happened to us against Spurs but we improved significantly in that area since then (we only lasted for 60 against Spurs).

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This is what I mean by people trying so hard to be positive that it ends up coming across as negative, and in the end more insulting to the team than anything the so called critical people have said. Of course if we're winning with the game nearly over and we end up losing then we've dropped points, to suggest that it doesn't matter because it's Liverpool is doing the team and work that Smith has done a disservice, he's now built a side that's good enough that it should be disappointed to lose the game in the manner that we did on Saturday, as would any other premier league club losing a game another premier league club in the same circumstances. That's not to say the result is the end of the world, but that we can feel genuinely disappointed in the end that we didn't come away with anything is whilst a negative emotion is at the same time actually a compliment to the team.

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14 minutes ago, useless said:

This is what I mean by people trying so hard to be positive that it ends up coming across as negative, and in the end more insulting to the team than anything the so called critical people have said. Of course if we're winning with the game nearly over and we end up losing then we've dropped points, to suggest that it doesn't matter because it's Liverpool is doing the team and work that Smith has done a disservice, he's now built a side that's good enough that it should be disappointed to lose the game in the manner that we did on Saturday, as would any other premier league club losing a game another premier league club in the same circumstances. That's not to say the result is the end of the world, but that we can feel genuinely disappointed in the end that we didn't come away with anything is whilst a negative emotion is at the same time actually a compliment to the team.

There's two separate things here: the disappointment and the criticism. We're all disappointed when we're beating Liverpool on 85 mins and come away with no points. Nobody's telling you you're not allowed to feel disappointed.

What I think is misguided is the way this turns into personal criticism of the manager and players, their abilities, their attitudes... calling for people to be sacked / dropped, several new signings in January, and so on.

It feels like the players would have been better off going 2-0 down in the first half and then pulling back a consolation in the second. Yet it's exactly the same result.

Early in the season we supposedly had a problem playing against 10 men, then we spanked Brighton. Now the new problem is giving away late winners against Big 6 clubs. No doubt we'll beat one of them at some point this season after scoring early.

Funnily enough, being positive about Dean Smith's Villa isn't an effort for me. I'm not "trying so hard". Maybe just better at putting things in perspective. I don't know.

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Football is a game of 90 minutes + stoppage time. If you concede at any point during this time, it's not "dropping points". Dropping points is a concept relative to the opposition you're playing and your expectations from that game. This can also fluctuate during the game based on how it's going.

Watching that game from 0-95 minutes, 2-1 is absolutely a very fair reflection on how the game went. If we conceded goals # 1 and 2 before the 70th minute (which could have quite easily happened...they should have already had 1 goal that was disallowed by VAR by then), how is that any different? Not only that, there was not a single Villa fan expecting even a point from that game. We had a 3% chance of winning according to most bookies. Losing to Liverpool is not dropping points to them by any stretch of the imagination, regardless of what minutes we conceded in. 

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22 minutes ago, useless said:

This is what I mean by people trying so hard to be positive that it ends up coming across as negative, and in the end more insulting to the team than anything the so called critical people have said. Of course if we're winning with the game nearly over and we end up losing then we've dropped points, to suggest that it doesn't matter because it's Liverpool is doing the team and work that Smith has done a disservice, he's now built a side that's good enough that it should be disappointed to lose the game in the manner that we did on Saturday, as would any other premier league club losing a game another premier league club in the same circumstances. That's not to say the result is the end of the world, but that we can feel genuinely disappointed in the end that we didn't come away with anything is whilst a negative emotion is at the same time actually a compliment to the team.

As I see it in the context of the game we did drop points.

In the context of the season and for where we are as a team, rather than be upset at dropping points, we can feel happy with the performance and effort that was shown. This isn't a disservice, just looking at things from the bigger picture.

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I haven't seen anyone asking for Smith to be sacked, and fans calling for players to dropped or replaced is normal for any club regardless of how well they're doing, as is suggesting players that could be signed in a coming transfer window. And being 2-0 down at half time and then conceding a late consotation goal is a completely different scenario and set of circumstances to being 1-0 up with minutes to go and then conceding two late goals, so of course people would have been less disappointed with the former because in that scenario we weren't minutes away from getting a result. And it seems some confuse making excuses for anything that might be perceived as a negative as 'perspective', the above scenario of imagining the match happening a completely different way to how it did certainly isn't perspective,

This is what I call perspective... ' but we can feel genuinely disappointed in the end that we didn't come away with anything which is whilst a negative emotion, is at the same time actually a compliment to the team.'

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