hippo Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 4 hours ago, villalad21 said: That's all true, but if we are bottom 3 by christmas and there is no signs of improvement our owners won't give a s*** in any of that. yep - I am sure they have a successor in mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OxfordVillan Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 Whilst I think we could have had better use of subs in one or two games this season, we mustn’t lose sight of the very clear fact that as a team we have had points stolen from us by blatantly wrong and direct game changing decisions. It’s arguable but I count 5 clear decisions against us in 6 games this season that have altered the outcome of games. That’s FIVE in SIX fixtures. (1) We started with McGinn getting bundled over in the box against Spurs and nothing given, that would have potentially put us 2-0 ahead. (2) Phillip Billing not being sent off in the 1st half in the Bournemouth game, subsequently subbed 5mins later at halftime allowing Bournemouth to continue with 11. (3) Lansburys disallowed goal in the last minute against Crystal Palace. (4) David Luiz jumped & dived for a penalty awarded against us at Arsenal, allowing Arsenal to equalise. (5) A blatant penalty not given to us for handball at Arsenal. We should have had 3pts from the Arsenal game, we should have had 1pt from the palace game. It’s arguable but we would likely have got a point, possibly a win, at home to Bournemouth had they have gone down to 10men for an entire half. We’d currently be sitting around 7th were it not for wrong decisions against us. People say these things even themselves out over a season, but can anyone point to a single decision so far this season that has benefitted us in the same way it has benefitted others against us? I can’t. And that’s important when judging our performances this season. For me there has only been one game where we looked like getting nothing and that was the Palace game where we were absolutely robbed of 1point. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, OxfordVillan said: Whilst I think we could have had better use of subs in one or two games this season, we mustn’t lose sight of the very clear fact that as a team we have had points stolen from us by blatantly wrong and direct game changing decisions. It’s arguable but I count 5 clear decisions against us in 6 games this season that have altered the outcome of games. That’s FIVE in SIX fixtures. (1) We started with McGinn getting bundled over in the box against Spurs and nothing given, that would have potentially put us 2-0 ahead. (2) Phillip Billing not being sent off in the 1st half in the Bournemouth game, subsequently subbed 5mins later at halftime allowing Bournemouth to continue with 11. (3) Lansburys disallowed goal in the last minute against Crystal Palace. (4) David Luiz jumped & dived for a penalty awarded against us at Arsenal, allowing Arsenal to equalise. (5) A blatant penalty not given to us for handball at Arsenal. We should have had 3pts from the Arsenal game, we should have had 1pt from the palace game. It’s arguable but we would likely have got a point, possibly a win, at home to Bournemouth had they have gone down to 10men for an entire half. We’d currently be sitting around 7th were it not for wrong decisions against us. People say these things even themselves out over a season, but can anyone point to a single decision so far this season that has benefitted us in the same way it has benefitted others against us? I can’t. And that’s important when judging our performances this season. For me there has only been one game where we looked like getting nothing and that was the Palace game where we were absolutely robbed of 1point. In fairness it's not clear this would have had much of an impact given how we have played against sides with 10 men twice this season. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 Amazing that we fail to get a result against one of the worst away teams in the leage in Palace, lose at home to Bournemouth, then again to ten men West Ham, and nobody says anything about Smith's future, and rightly so, even if the results are underwhelming. Yet as soon as we lose away to Arsenal a team that could finish top four most probably top six, and suddenly everyone is talking about him losing his job. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 6 minutes ago, useless said: Amazing that we fail to get a result against one of the worst away teams in the leage in Palace, lose at home to Bournemouth, then again to ten men West Ham, and nobody says anything about Smith's future, and rightly so, even if the results are underwhelming. Yet as soon as we lose away to Arsenal a team that could finish top four most probably top six, and suddenly everyone is talking about him losing his job. I think it is that we found ourselves so close to coming away with 3 points - and ended up with none - although it was arsenal, we were twice in front and they were down to 10 men . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 If we'd have done better in the previous games like I suggested, but many were dismissing those results talking about how early it is in the season, then the disappointment of the Arsenal result wouldn't have been felt as strongly as it was, and the next three games wouldn't feel quite as crucial to the rest of our season as they do now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 I can't believe some are questioning Smith's ability. When we find our groove it will be interesting to read the comments of those who have already lost faith after 6 games . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said: I can't believe some are questioning Smith's ability. When we find our groove it will be interesting to read the comments of those who have already lost faith after 6 games . What frustrate people is his in game management. He seem to be re active instead of pro active. Similar to Bruce. Like against Arsenal it was just a matter of time until they would score and not until Arsenal were 3-2 up he tried to sort out a obvious tired midfield, but disappointingly much much too late. Edited September 24, 2019 by villalad21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 40 minutes ago, useless said: Amazing that we fail to get a result against one of the worst away teams in the leage in Palace, lose at home to Bournemouth, then again to ten men West Ham, and nobody says anything about Smith's future, and rightly so, even if the results are underwhelming. Yet as soon as we lose away to Arsenal a team that could finish top four most probably top six, and suddenly everyone is talking about him losing his job. You're wasting your time looking for any logic when it comes to the fickle. Go and read some of the comments posted straight after the Arsenal game. You couldn't make it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, villalad21 said: What frustrate people is his in game management. He seem to be re active instead of pro active. Similar to Bruce. Like against Arsenal it was just a matter of time until they would score and not until Arsenal were 3-2 up he tried to sort out the midfield, but disappointingly much much too late. His style of football is a million miles from the drivel served up by Bruce. And such his the man's honesty, he would probably be the first to hold his hand up and say , " yeah, I made a mistake ". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said: His style of football is a million miles from the drivel served up by Bruce. And such his the man's honesty, he would probably be the first to hold his hand up and say , " yeah, I made a mistake ". I wasn't talking about their style of play but their in game management, which is similar. Or to simplify it. They are both reactive instead of proactive. Edited September 24, 2019 by villalad21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 16 hours ago, Dave-R said: You could also make an argument that when rebuilding a squad that a certain percentage of those players brought in won't actually work out. We pretty much replaced a first eleven and filled a subs bench with new players, dont know about you guys but i knew not everyone were going to work out. We have done pretty well so far, i would say so for a squad put together from just over 100 mill. At times we have more than held it against opponents and they have much better quality compared to us. We have a squad which is trying to figure out if they can become the next bunch of elite footballers in the toughest league in the world, it's certainly not an easy thing to accomplish by any means. All the games that we've played I would say our downfall in games has been officiating, fitness and pressure. We can't control the officiating, however our fitness levels need a dramatic rise as well as applying pressure and dealing with it quickly. I will say that at this level in our circumstance with a new squad that after 6 games, you can't really expect a newly formed squad to deal with that pressure for a full on 90 mins, nor just magically have the fitness to match the quality, it has to be raised overtime. Our squad is complete different to Norwhich and sheffield utd, they have not had to have a full remake like us and in keeping the majority of there squads together, they have more than kept a core going. We maybe very late adaptors to the other two clubs we went up with and that's fine if we just survive. Our player have the ability to adapt, but back upto the top where I said not everyone who we signed will be cut out for this jump, January will be the perfect time to hopefully put right some of the positions we have got wrong. It's more than looking like we will need to spend big on the wings and a striker, plus a left-back, if we need to do that to raise the bar then so be it. I don't see the point in getting on anyone's back though as there are to many factors coming into play. We all knew or should of known that the Prem was going to be tough for us especially, if we pull through this season then im happy but im also happy for Smith to try bring us back up of we do go down. Smith earnt my patience and loyalty, yes its frustrating being turned over by an arsenal team we had in the bag, we need to calm down abit about it and keep the support flowing. I bet Smith himself wasnt to happy about it all, he will know how he and the players went wrong. Working through that kind of problem of dealing with that kind of pressure of being an extra man up, twice, in two games now is not something i would like to have to try and work our swuad through and get out of them. It must be very tough to try and route out bad habits our squad seems to of picked up and you can see that we have picked up one hell of a bad habit in the way of sitting back and letting teams get at us when we are tired. If we can deal with the fitness level where 20 mins of yesterday game we had shut down and they took it to us, if we can deal with that then hopefully it will cut out that pressure were inviting onto us late in the game. Glad I'm not a Coach or Manager dealing with the problems of a whole squad, bet it's some tough work. Dave ..some good points. Just one point.....The tiredness late in a game is a pertinent point......Our best player on the ball is wearing himself out and subsequently his keeping of the ball gets tested late in a game, we don't have many others who can relieve him of pressure. We have very few who can do what Jack does keep the ball away from opposition players. I agree with you some seem to be no better than what we already had, but some are of course. We was never going to rebuild in one summer window. Now we have the nucleus of owned players.....if we can add a couple of quality players it will make all the difference. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 (edited) 19 hours ago, sheepyvillian said: I can't believe some are questioning Smith's ability. When we find our groove it will be interesting to read the comments of those who have already lost faith after 6 games . The things I saw, were player issues, not manager issues in the direct sense......of course.... the manager is responsible if they mess the toilet. If a manager has no better to change, he has to just grin and bear it or work on the training ground until he can buy better. Edited September 25, 2019 by TRO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 48 minutes ago, villalad21 said: What frustrate people is his in game management. He seem to be re active instead of pro active. Similar to Bruce. Like against Arsenal it was just a matter of time until they would score and not until Arsenal were 3-2 up he tried to sort out a obvious tired midfield, but disappointingly much much too late. Thing is as fans, we really have no idea what his "in game management" was, besides the substitutions. We don't know what he told the players at half-time, what he told the subs before they went on, nor how faithfully the players followed his plan. The ability of managers to affect matches mid-game is massively overstated. Some of the "great" substitutions and formation changes were just lucky rolls of the dice, or forced on the manager by injury. It also depends massively on how much quality you have on the bench. Pep Guardiola can bring on players like Gabriel Jesus and Rodri. He has every kind of player at his disposal - playmakers, ballwinners, rapid wingers. Whatever the game calls for he, he can respond. Nobody has presented a compelling case of why DS bringing on Conor Hourihane, Henri Lansbury or Keinan Davis a bit earlier would have changed this result. Smith is the reason we were even in a winning position in the first place! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, KentVillan said: Nobody has presented a compelling case of why DS bringing on Conor Hourihane, Henri Lansbury or Keinan Davis a bit earlier would have changed this result. Smith is the reason we were even in a winning position in the first place! The team was absolutely gassed. Grealish and McGinn had started to conserve energy and ease off because they knew they were tired. That's how the penalty happened, no one got to Guendouzi. He wandered forward and I don't think Engels was expecting to have to deal with him. Lansbury should have come on for either McGinn or El Ghazi at 1-0, or 1-1 or even 2-1. I don't think it's hindsight either, it was very obvious we were getting tired and letting Arsenal back into the game when with a fully fit 11 we were creating chances. Immediately following HT we made two or three good chances but didn't maintain control as we got more tired. The ideal sub for me would have been Luiz for Nakamba when we went 2-1 up but he wasn't on the bench Luiz would have been perfect v 10 men when we just needed some composure. Separate issue, but it doesn't make sense in my head for players to hurdle the bench? How can Luiz go from starting to behind Lansbury for example in the pecking order? How can Guilbert go from out of the squad to starting? Doesn't really matter but you should have the best options on your bench. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, KentVillan said: Thing is as fans, we really have no idea what his "in game management" was, besides the substitutions. We don't know what he told the players at half-time, what he told the subs before they went on, nor how faithfully the players followed his plan. The ability of managers to affect matches mid-game is massively overstated. Some of the "great" substitutions and formation changes were just lucky rolls of the dice, or forced on the manager by injury. It also depends massively on how much quality you have on the bench. Pep Guardiola can bring on players like Gabriel Jesus and Rodri. He has every kind of player at his disposal - playmakers, ballwinners, rapid wingers. Whatever the game calls for he, he can respond. Nobody has presented a compelling case of why DS bringing on Conor Hourihane, Henri Lansbury or Keinan Davis a bit earlier would have changed this result. Smith is the reason we were even in a winning position in the first place! Of course it won't work every time but that's not the point. The point is why is he waiting until Arsenal goes 3-2 up until he subs off a tired midfield? Everyone could see long before Arsenal scored it was just a matter of time. As a manager you have to see and predict the obvious and try to better the situation, but Smith did nothing, that's what disappoints me. I get Bruce vibes from it. Edited September 24, 2019 by villalad21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 1 minute ago, villalad21 said: Of course it won't work every time but that's not the point. The point is why is he waiting until Arsenal goes 3-2 up until he subs off a tired midfield? Everyone could see long before Arsenal scored it was just a matter of time. As a manager you have to see and predict the obvious and try to better the situation, but Smith did nothing, that's what disappoints me. I get Bruce vibes from it. I guess what sticks in my mind is that you were tearing into Dean Smith last season just before we went on a 10 game winning run. It's very easy to be wise with hindsight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 1 minute ago, KentVillan said: I guess what sticks in my mind is that you were tearing into Dean Smith last season just before we went on a 10 game winning run. It's very easy to be wise with hindsight. That run had nothing to do with Smith's in game management but all about players hitting form. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 8 minutes ago, villalad21 said: That run had nothing to do with Smith's in game management but all about players hitting form. I bet that's not true at all. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LakotaDakota Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 Honestly think if we fail to get a win in the next 3 games then get smashed by both liverpool & city he will be gone in the november international break Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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