Dean Smith

[AvfcRigo82]

21 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

Right now I don’t understand villa we’re watching the youth team smash teams including Man U 5-1 and the first team are piss poor at the min why can’t some of the youth integrate

I would certainly draft 2 or 3 from that team into our first XI. What do we have to lose exactly?

[StewieGriffin]

11 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

Just accept that our youth team aren't good enough...that's why our so called best u23 players are going on loan to the likes of burton and cambridge.

Where did we loan Grealish out to again? Real Madrid was it?

[Vive_La_Villa]

4 hours ago, Dave J said:

Are we really at this stage ?  I feel if we were to lose the dissapointment would be palpable - but toxic I would hope not.?

I don’t think we should be. But it’s villa park we are talking about.

maybe more disgruntled than toxic.

[tomav84]

30 minutes ago, StewieGriffin said:

Where did we loan Grealish out to again? Real Madrid was it?

not quite sure your point? we loaned him out once as an 18 year old to notts county (where he played almost every game, might i add) and he's been with us ever since, so sort of further validates my point that if they're good enough to challenge for the 1st team then they dont go anywhere. RHM and o'hare are now in their 20s - we'd know by now if they were going to make it or not in my opinion...or they would at least be going to a fellow championship side

[tomav84]

32 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I don’t think we should be. But it’s villa park we are talking about.

maybe more disgruntled than toxic.

the word you're looking for is hysterical

[Farlz]

I genuinely can't believe some people are already getting on Smith's back. Aston Villa fans really are the absolute worst.

[Killeen30]

16 minutes ago, Farlz said:

I genuinely can't believe some people are already getting on Smith's back. Aston Villa fans really are the absolute worst.

THIS.

Dean Smith needs to be given time.  This is not his team.  I want to see what happens when he has his own players and his own Villa team.  The current crop (or crap) need to start giving him more effort!

[romavillan]

1 hour ago, StewieGriffin said:

Where did we loan Grealish out to again? Real Madrid was it?

Kit was more like Juventus...

[StewieGriffin]

19 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

not quite sure your point? we loaned him out once as an 18 year old to notts county (where he played almost every game, might i add) and he's been with us ever since, so sort of further validates my point that if they're good enough to challenge for the 1st team then they dont go anywhere. RHM and o'hare are now in their 20s - we'd know by now if they were going to make it or not in my opinion...or they would at least be going to a fellow championship side

My point was/is that where a player is sent to on loan isn't indicative of his ability or potential, which:

"Just accept that our youth team aren't good enough...that's why our so called best u23 players are going on loan to the likes of burton and cambridge."

implies you feel it is. Grealish didn't exactly walk into the first team when he came back from loan either - it took Tim Sherwood to give him a shot, and even then he didnt become a regular until the post-relegation season under Bruce.

Some of the best known players have spent time on loan at "small" clubs. Beckham at Preston and Kane at Leicester are 2 that jump to mind, I'm sure there are others - the gap between the clubs they went from and to isn't that different from where we are to where Hepburn-Murphy has gone.

The main reason some of our supposedly better youths haven't gone out is because of the reluctance previous managers (not just Bruce, I should add) to allow it.- not neccesarily because of their ability or lack of. O'Hare should have gone out 12/18 months ago, Hepburn-Murphy debuted at 16 (admittedly only for a few minute cameo at 4-0 up) - he's now 20. He's been a regular good performer and goalscorer for our U23 team in that entire time period - I refuse to believe that not one club has wanted to borrow him. The kid has been terribly mismanaged to a point where he's probably now 18 months behind in his development. He should have been pushing to get a start in our first team by now, especially given the downturn in our fortunes since he was 16.

Yes, the once in a generation ones will always go straight in, but just because someone hasnt gone out on loan yet (which as I've already said in our case it isn't just down to player ability) doesn't mean they won't be good enough - which I appreciate isn't the point you are making, but others have.

 

 

[hippo]

19 minutes ago, Killeen30 said:

THIS.

Dean Smith needs to be given time.  This is not his team.  I want to see what happens when he has his own players and his own Villa team.  The current crop (or crap) need to start giving him more effort!

Is there any indication he won't be given time ? 

[TRO]

6 hours ago, flashingqwerty said:

Clough may have been right in what he said in his era, but its not a coincidence that all the most successful managers in modern football are tactic focused.

The game has changed, and as a club, we have not, and that is why we continue to struggle.

"The game has changed" is a cop out....of course its changed, it always has...its evolving all the time, it has for the last Hundred Years.

example :

Vic Buckingham went to Ajax in 1964 and Barcelona in 1969 to preach his football philosophies , which was picked up by Rinus Michels and subsequently, Johan Cryuff.

These similar principles are being Championed today by Pep Guardiola and " The Modern Day " progressive managers.

you are right though, tactics are a tangible piece of criteria....maybe the dismissive comments from managers about tactics relate to their overall belief that players themselves in the main are the issue.

Its no good having your tactics spot on , if players do not execute the basics or follow instructions...its like barking up the wrong tree.

Vic Buckingham- ( played for Spurs)Albion – Ajax - Barcelona

• “If you have got the ball keep it, the other team cannot score

Pep Guardiola

• I will forgive if the players cannot get it right, but not if they do not try hard.

Johan Cruyff

• The hardest thing about an easy match is making a weak opponent play poor..A poor players isn't poor because he tends to kick the ball in his own goal...Its because when you put intense pressure on him, he loses control...so you may have to increase the tempo of the game and he'll automatically give the ball away.

Rinus Michels

• Football is like war.Whoever behaves too properly, is lost.

These are quotes from some of the most prominent and high profile exponents of expansive football....my point is , lets not over complicate our thoughts with tactics, its players in the main.

All those guys above had good players...who could cope with the vision those managers had...tactics was so easy to implement.

 

 

Edited January 16, 2019 by TRO

[praisedmambo]

5 minutes ago, hippo said:

Is there any indication he won't be given time ? 

Pfffft. From the majority yes. Bit cheeky to say such a thing coming from you who didn't even wait one game before doubting him as the right manager. I think most people have a different definition of giving someone time than you do.

[hippo]

2 minutes ago, praisedmambo said:

Pfffft. From the majority yes. Bit cheeky to say such a thing coming from you who didn't even wait one game before doubting him as the right manager. I think most people have a different definition of giving someone time than you do.

He either gets time or he doesn't - the postings of 'hippo' and any others will have very little if any influence on the duration of smiths Tenure.  If he wins games he will get longer - if he losses too many his time here will be shorter.

[TRO]

I can count on one hand the amount of games in the last 10 years, where I felt our team showed that attitude....that's where I think, we are lost.

Rinus Michels

• Football is like war.Whoever behaves too properly, is lost.

 

I think our football is anything but war.....and that quote is from one of the worlds most prominent Expansive football managers.

[flashingqwerty]

20 minutes ago, TRO said:

"The game has changed" is a cop out....of course its changed, it always has...its evolving all the time, it has for the last Hundred Years.

example :

Vic Buckingham went to Ajax in 1964 and Barcelona in 1969 to preach his football philosophies , which was picked up by Rinus Michels and subsequently, Johan Cryuff.

These similar principles are being Championed today by Pep Guardiola and " The Modern Day " progressive managers.

you are right though, tactics are a tangible piece of criteria....maybe the dismissive comments from managers about tactics relate to their overall belief that players themselves in the main are the issue.

Its no good having your tactics spot on , if players do not execute the basics or follow instructions...its like barking up the wrong tree.

Vic Buckingham- ( played for Spurs)Albion – Ajax - Barcelona

• “If you have got the ball keep it, the other team cannot score

Pep Guardiola

• I will forgive if the players cannot get it right, but not if they do not try hard.

Johan Cruff

• The hardest thing about an easy match is making a weak opponent play poor..A poor players isn't poor because he tends to kick the ball in his own goal...Its because when you put intense pressure on him, he loses control...so you may have to increase the tempo of the game and he'll automatically give the ball away.

Rinus Michels

• Football is like war.Whoever behaves too properly, is lost.

These are quotes from some of the most prominent and high profile exponents of expansive football....my point is , lets not over complicate our thoughts with tactics, its players in the main.

All those guys above had good players...who could cope with the vision those managers had...tactics was so easy to implement.

 

 

Sorry Tro, you're backing up your argument that tactics have little importance with quotes about how important tactics are?

One of us is missing the point - and im sorry to say its not me.

[AvfcRigo82]

Quotes out!

[TRO]

44 minutes ago, StewieGriffin said:

My point was/is that where a player is sent to on loan isn't indicative of his ability or potential, which:

"Just accept that our youth team aren't good enough...that's why our so called best u23 players are going on loan to the likes of burton and cambridge."

implies you feel it is. Grealish didn't exactly walk into the first team when he came back from loan either - it took Tim Sherwood to give him a shot, and even then he didnt become a regular until the post-relegation season under Bruce.

Some of the best known players have spent time on loan at "small" clubs. Beckham at Preston and Kane at Leicester are 2 that jump to mind, I'm sure there are others - the gap between the clubs they went from and to isn't that different from where we are to where Hepburn-Murphy has gone.

The main reason some of our supposedly better youths haven't gone out is because of the reluctance previous managers (not just Bruce, I should add) to allow it.- not neccesarily because of their ability or lack of. O'Hare should have gone out 12/18 months ago, Hepburn-Murphy debuted at 16 (admittedly only for a few minute cameo at 4-0 up) - he's now 20. He's been a regular good performer and goalscorer for our U23 team in that entire time period - I refuse to believe that not one club has wanted to borrow him. The kid has been terribly mismanaged to a point where he's probably now 18 months behind in his development. He should have been pushing to get a start in our first team by now, especially given the downturn in our fortunes since he was 16.

Yes, the once in a generation ones will always go straight in, but just because someone hasnt gone out on loan yet (which as I've already said in our case it isn't just down to player ability) doesn't mean they won't be good enough - which I appreciate isn't the point you are making, but others have.

 

 

The problem for me is not necessarily of the academy, Carte blanche....its more to do with the poor state of out team status and that we are always fighting fires in terms of results.

In the past, Players like Cowans, Shaw, Barry was introduced in to teams with less desperation for results...and they had stronger support players to help them through.

In order for us to be sure about these kids, they need game time.

However, I also have a suspicion that we focus on a good academy TEAM, instead of developing Good Individuals......There is only ONE team in a football club the first team all the others teams are their to develop individuals to go in to that first team.

 

[Dave-R]

I'd say the game has changed as well, it has changed from how we play that's why we don't win anymore

Seriously though this championship is tough and the likes of our players do not belong here. The Officiating is the worse ive seen for a long time and players know how to abuse it, again our players do not and so they do not belong with rhis league.

Our players need to toughen up, they are officially the pu$$y Patrol until they do man up to the rest of the teams, I'm calling our players out.

Even if they had a red card a piece they mite feel some sense of vengeance against what seems to be lousy officiating and bad players worming there way around the rules.

I  really want to see our little defenders behave like little ankle biting jack russels not some sausage dogs prodding along waiting for the ball to go past.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Dave-R

[hippo]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

The problem for me is not necessarily of the academy, Carte blanche....its more to do with the poor state of out team status and that we are always fighting fires in terms of results.

In the past, Players like Cowans, Shaw, Barry was introduced in to teams with less desperation for results...and they had stronger support players to help them through.

In order for us to be sure about these kids, they need game time.

However, I also have a suspicion that we focus on a good academy TEAM, instead of developing Good Individuals......There is only ONE team in a football club the first team all the others teams are their to develop individuals to go in to that first team.

 

I would also say we focus on good academy results - and ignore the defeats.

I've said before the biggest problem with our u23's is there appalling injury record. 

[TRO]

1 hour ago, flashingqwerty said:

Sorry Tro, you're backing up your argument that tactics have little importance with quotes about how important tactics are?

One of us is missing the point - and im sorry to say its not me.

I think we have a different interpretation of tactics.....not sure where you get that from?

It strikes me that those quotes are relating to application as opposed to tactics....but hey ho....we will just have to disagree. maybe we are on the same  book but the wrong page, maybe I interpret tactics slightly different to you.

Gareth Southgate's take on it :

To reinforce their position as the boss, managers often waffle on about formations and tactics.

This often results in total confusion. Players get preoccupied with carrying out instructions, rather than trusting their instincts and taking the initiative.

Of course, tactics have their place in the game, but as manager it's important you don't indulge yourself.

Bamboozling the players with textbook talk is a common mistake, says former Middlesbrough boss, Gareth Southgate.

Whether you're using words, body language or a tactics boards, you've got to get your point across clearly and concisely.

 

Edited January 16, 2019 by TRO