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Dean Smith

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40 minutes ago, ViewFromT2 said:

Can't see any manager getting 2 years at Villa in all honesty. That may be the biggest issue, the fact we are not prepared to wait. However, when you take a step back....we shouldn't be as far away to promotion as we are now after 4 years in the championship really, should we?

I think that just highlights what a mess Dr Tony and Keith Wyness made of it. Spending the money we have should have virtually guaranteed promotion within 3 years. But we’ve wasted so much, and it can’t continue. 

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I just figured out his like for like substitutions at the weekend. 

It was him saying there is noting wrong with the system i set up against Wigan and its all the players faults for not trying.  Arrogance at its best.

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1 hour ago, ViewFromT2 said:

Value the opposing opinion, but would really welcome some comments and counter arguments to explain your difference of opinion?

Not sure what entrenched means in the context of this post either? 😕

I was trying not to say that I thought it came across as the same old 'ignore any logic/context bs' and seemed a bit entrenched in lazy weirdly aggressive thinking. 

'Enough of this he doesn't have his own players (paraphrased) '....comes across as someone who is ignoring the fact we have a shit squad and who is willing to judge the manager now. He's barely been here a few months...80% of it has been great but all of a sudden we lose a few and he's hopeless. This short memory thing is a classic feature of football fan moaning. In general the whole thing comes across as something entrenched...prejudiced. Facts don't matter or will be spun to satisfy the entrenched views. 

Something like that. 

 

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31 minutes ago, praisedmambo said:

I was trying not to say that I thought it came across as the same old 'ignore any logic/context bs' and seemed a bit entrenched in lazy weirdly aggressive thinking. 

'Enough of this he doesn't have his own players (paraphrased) '....comes across as someone who is ignoring the fact we have a shit squad and who is willing to judge the manager now. He's barely been here a few months...80% of it has been great but all of a sudden we lose a few and he's hopeless. This short memory thing is a classic feature of football fan moaning. In general the whole thing comes across as something entrenched...prejudiced. Facts don't matter or will be spun to satisfy the entrenched views. 

Something like that. 

 

Thanks for that, I'd like to think my opinions are more than a 'classic feature of football fan moaning', but I value your response.

Going back to the players issue, I really do not recall any fan, on any platform, bemoaning the squad when Bruce was in charge. I remember many, many, many fans (including yours truly), drooling over what another manager could achieve with such a squad in the championship. To call it a 'shit squad' is bazaar in my view, were they all made available for transfer today, none of them would struggle to find another side at this level or above. Name me a better squad of players currently playing in the championship? OK, I accept that there is no depth to our defensive line, but when fully fit, we have a back four consisting of seasoned internationals, and for the championship they should be doing far better. 

 

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19 minutes ago, ViewFromT2 said:

Thanks for that, I'd like to think my opinions are more than a 'classic feature of football fan moaning', but I value your response.

Going back to the players issue, I really do not recall any fan, on any platform, bemoaning the squad when Bruce was in charge. I remember many, many, many fans (including yours truly), drooling over what another manager could achieve with such a squad in the championship. To call it a 'shit squad' is bazaar in my view, were they all made available for transfer today, none of them would struggle to find another side at this level or above. Name me a better squad of players currently playing in the championship? OK, I accept that there is no depth to our defensive line, but when fully fit, we have a back four consisting of seasoned internationals, and for the championship they should be doing far better. 

 

Thanks for taking what I said in good spirits. It is a credit even if we don't agree.

Our squad is awful bar Grealish, Abraham, Tuanzebe, Chester of last season and...I'm struggling. Some of the others are passable but they definitely don't represent the best squad in the league. We've been playing three right backs for a few games, had one of the worst keepers I've ever seen until he did his achillies—we have to replace Grealish with BB or Whelan. I think there are plenty of better squads than ours in the league—squads with players on the up, not on the way down. We are saddled with dead wood on big wages—we can't shift these players if we wanted to, which makes that first bit in bold mind-blowing from my perspective! 😅

Of the two disastrous games, we have been missing in part or all three of Grealish, Abraham and Tuanzebe. Our bad form has come exactly when Tuanzebe and Grealish got injured. We were great with them and we're not without them. We over-rely on these players, which is not a sign of a good squad—and to further that, again, once Tuanzebe was injured we went with right backs everywhere. Our strongest team is good, but lose a few and the cracks quickly begin to show.

I think the reason why I get so defensive is that this kind of context never seems to come near the thinking of those who seemed to have, yep, entrenched opinions against the manager from the off. I also get defensive, because we'll get nowhere if we keep changing manager. Of course we need to find the right one before we stick to them but who could we get that has managed a bigger club than Villa who is going to come down to the Championship. To me this is an answer that doesn't need answering for about another ten months, maybe more.

Edited by praisedmambo
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27 minutes ago, praisedmambo said:

Thanks for taking what I said in good spirits. It is a credit even if we don't agree.

Our squad is awful bar Grealish, Abraham, Tuanzebe, Chester of last season and...I'm struggling. Some of the others are passable but they definitely don't represent the best squad in the league. We've been playing three right backs for a few games, had one of the worst keepers I've ever seen until he did his achillies—we have to replace Grealish with BB or Whelan. I think there are plenty of better squads than ours in the league—squads with players on the up, not on the way down. We are saddled with dead wood on big wages—we can't shift these players if we wanted to, which makes that first bit in bold mind-blowing from my perspective! 😅

Of the two disastrous games, we have been missing in part or all three of Grealish, Abraham and Tuanzebe. Our bad form has come exactly when Tuanzebe and Grealish got injured. We were great with them and we're not without them. We over-rely on these players, which is not a sign of a good squad—and to further that, again, once Tuanzebe was injured we went with right backs everywhere. Our strongest team is good, but lose a few and the cracks quickly begin to show.

I think the reason why I get so defensive is that this kind of context never seems to come near the thinking of those who seemed to have, yep, entrenched opinions against the manager from the off. I also get defensive, because we'll get nowhere if we keep changing manager. Of course we need to find the right one before we stick to them but who could we get that has managed a bigger club than Villa who is going to come down to the Championship. To me this is an answer that doesn't need answering for about another ten months, maybe more.

Good points, well made!  I can accept any fans opinion, whether they share mine or not. We're all fans at the end of the day and ultimately we all want the same thing. As long as it doesn't get personal, I always enjoy a good debate 😀

It's hard to argue with the facts regarding Tuanzebe and Grealish. It was the same last season under Bruce, we were never really competitive until Grealish returned November time.

I still say though, that we have the strongest squad in the division, whether they be on the way down, or the way up....in the right here and now, they are better than most at this level. If you imagine a players career as a ladder, the 'rungs' they are on right here, right now are at least as high as most of the rest of the players in this championship. Some of our players used to be on higher rungs I agree.

You rightly point to the 3 'star' men...they would be our premier league players, the ones that we could carry into next season were we to go up. But McGinn would be close to being the best performing midfielder in the league this year, even when Grealish was playing. Of the rest, for me these are absolutely proven at this level: Chester, Hourihane, Kodija, Hogan, Adomah, Elmohamady, Hutton, Elphick, Jedinak, Lansbury, Taylor....by proven I mean they've done it in this division, for us or another side. We then have younger players that look very capable at this level: Bree, Green, Davis etc

To me that is simply not a 'shit' squad. Our squad is better than West Brom's in my view. In fairness to Darren Moore, he tried to force a style on that squad that did not suit them. He was big enough to accept he got it wrong, tweeked the style to suit his personnel, and got results. Blues have a shit squad. A couple of really decent players, but overall, they've a shit squad.

In my defence, I would also like to say that I have not held an 'entrenched' position over the manager since the off. I was underwhelmed by the appointment but I have been behind him all the way. He's had 15/16 games or so but I am worried that the initial spark that he seemed to bring has gone so quickly. I had a similar underwhelming feeling when the job was given to John Gregory....but he would be amongst my favourite villa managers now. I really hope Dean Smith does the same.

Edited by ViewFromT2
typo
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Is it fair to say that he can only address the problem of Jack Grealish being out injured by buying a like for like player? For example Bradley Dack or Romaine Sawyers.

Without this type of player our midfield goes completely missing.

It first became obvious to me against Leeds,looking at the center circle there were no Villa players in it on many occasions.

We need to tweak our style a bit until Jack is back!

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23 minutes ago, ViewFromT2 said:

McGinn

I completely forgot about McGinn! Yeah I like him too. Apologies for my over-strong vocabulary at times. I get carried away. Hopefully this bad period disappears soon and a bit of positivity returns all round. I really do feel that even with Jack back Tuanzebe, the way he brought the ball out of defence, is going to be a massive miss for the next month. Especially after Hause's debut and Elphick looking a bit average as ever imo.

Edited by praisedmambo

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30 minutes ago, ViewFromT2 said:

Good points, well made!  I can accept any fans opinion, whether they share mine or not. We're all fans at the end of the day and ultimately we all want the same thing. As long as it doesn't get personal, I always enjoy a good debate 😀

It's hard to argue with the facts regarding Tuanzebe and Grealish. It was the same last season under Bruce, we were never really competitive until Grealish returned November time.

I still say though, that we have the strongest squad in the division though, whether they be on the way down, or the way up....in the right here and now, they are better than most at this level. If you imagine a players career as a ladder, the 'rungs' they are on right here, right now are at least as high as most of the rest of the players in this championship. Some of our plyers used to be on higher rungs I agree.

You rightly point to the 3 'star' men...they would be our premier league players, the ones that we could carry into next season were we to go up. But McGinn would be close to being the best performing midfielder in the league this year, even when Grealish was playing. Of the rest, for me these are absolutely proven at this level: Chester, Hourihane, Kodija, Hogan, Adomah, Elmohamady, Hutton, Elphick, Jedinak, Lansbury, Taylor....by proven I mean they've done it in this division, for us or another side. We then have younger players that look very capable at this level: Bree, Green, Davis etc

To me that is simply not a 'shit' squad. Our squad is better than West Brom's in my view. In fairness to Darren Moore, he tried to force a style on that squad that did not suit them. He was big enough to accept he got it wrong, tweeked the style to suit his personnel, and got results. Blues have a shit squad. A couple of really decent players, but overall, they've a shit squad.

In my defence, I would also like to say that I have not held an 'entrenched' position over the manager since the off. I was underwhelmed by the appointment but I have been behind him all the way. He's had 15/16 games or so but I am worried that the initial spark that he seemed to bring has gone so quickly. I had a similar underwhelming feeling when the job was given to John Gregory....but he would be amongst my favourite villa managers now. I really hope Dean Smith does the same.

I dont agree with the best squad part, many of your comments I do but that not a chance. If we had a best squad of the league then we wouldn't be going off like we are pinning the blame on them, many of them are making very costly and ammature mistakes. There are only three players that stand out for the rite reasons this season's for our club and that is Mcginn, Grealish and Tammy, those are the players that are worthy of mention. They may have proven themselves before but they was in a squad with the likes of Snoddy, Grabban, Forester, John Terry and the team clicked and got on with things. If I also look at that team it's just another example of our underperforming player's needed there hands held while other players did there work. 

I'm sorry but I think our team is massively over rated, our first teamers have no heart, no spine, don't seem to want to get those tackles in and seem like they need the likes of Tammy, Grealish and Mcginn to mop up there mistakes, sometimes players look good because of other players and that is what we have and we need to get rid of them.

I think come summertime, Smith will have a massive clear out, they are not worth rehiring and lengthening contracts.  I know some of you fans love them to bits, but you need to seperate feelings from worth to the club. If you can seperate feelings you will see how big of a waste bin our club has become and the biggest problem is no one is taking out the rubbish, it's collected up to the point it is over flowing and it's more than very noticeable. 

Edited by Dave-R

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1 hour ago, praisedmambo said:

I was trying not to say that I thought it came across as the same old 'ignore any logic/context bs' and seemed a bit entrenched in lazy weirdly aggressive thinking. 

'Enough of this he doesn't have his own players (paraphrased) '....comes across as someone who is ignoring the fact we have a shit squad and who is willing to judge the manager now. He's barely been here a few months...80% of it has been great but all of a sudden we lose a few and he's hopeless. This short memory thing is a classic feature of football fan moaning. In general the whole thing comes across as something entrenched...prejudiced. Facts don't matter or will be spun to satisfy the entrenched views. 

Something like that. 

 

6 wins in 16 games does not = 80% great

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6 hours ago, ViewFromT2 said:

I agree totally. What's more worrying is that on more than one occasion now, but in particular last week, he has explicitly stated they have worked hard on shape and defensive situations in training....Saturday was a result of a week's defensive work. That is simply horrifying!

You could argue that the longer he has them between games, the worse we look!

that is true...its weird.

They must be ignoring or failing to adhere to everything that's been told.

I guess if you haven't been coached for such a long time....it does come as a shock....I am presuming that of course, SB could have had the same problem.

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4 hours ago, thejoker said:

I still firmly believe he will get it right but it might take 2 years to change the culture at the club. 

We've been saying this since Paul Lambert was manager.

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3 hours ago, romavillan said:

I think you can be sure Smith and Kelly do work on pattern of play and shape on the ball, and a lot of work off the ball to do with positioning too. It worked immediately the problem for me is how it's gone so badly wrong with only 2 or 3 players missing. I'm not sure that rests at Smith's door entirely, although I am sure him and his staff will be losing sleep over how to sort it out.

I think them losing shape is to do with the players shitting themselves to be honest, trying to hide and not take any responsibility for losing. We've seen it since Lambert's second season with every manager. The only ray of light is the first couple of months, it shows what Smith is capable of and what the club should be giving him the tools and backing to achieve. The summer revolution will be massive, hopefully we can have a new core in place by the time next season kicks off.

I don't doubt your view.....I just for the life of me, can't understand the appearing lack of due diligence that goes in to prospective new players....sure everyone makes a mistake, we have an open top bus if we get one right.

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2 hours ago, praisedmambo said:

Here we go on the neverending merry-go-round that is Villatalk and Aston villa managers. 

Maybe if we actually appoint a manager who is decent instead of constsntly going for shit mediocore appointments the merry-go-round may cease.

Someone that has done something in the game.

I watched a couple of good documentaries on Big Ron the other night. How I would love for some our fans to have remembered when he was our manager,we have not had anyone at this club quite like him. Brian Little and John Gregory are a very close 2nd & 3rd.

Since these guys and the turn of the century our managerial appointments have been utterly **** shit.

 

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8 minutes ago, TRO said:

I don't doubt your view.....I just for the life of me, can't understand the appearing lack of due diligence that goes in to prospective new players....sure everyone makes a mistake, we have an open top bus if we get one right.

It's a hangover from post MON for me, we've always had a large percentage who don't give a toss apart from the wages. This summer I think most of the old guard will be on their way. I agree though our recruitment has been pathetic for a long time. You only have to look at what has been achieved in a lot of other places with less resources.

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10 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

Maybe if we actually appoint a manager who is decent instead of constsntly going for shit mediocore appointments the merry-go-round may cease.

Someone that has done something in the game.

I watched a couple of good documentaries on Big Ron the other night. How I would love for some our fans to have remembered when he was our manager,we have not had anyone at this club quite like him. Brian Little and John Gregory are a very close 2nd & 3rd.

Since these guys and the turn of the century our managerial appointments have been utterly **** shit.

 

I think Smith given time will be a very good appointment, yes the last month has been shit, but we've had change from the very top all the way down, we still haven't hired all the recruitment side of things yet right? I'd expect some coaching appts too, it's all massive changes. The summer will bring a massive opportunity to rebuild, in this league or not. If we have the patience to let Smith build a squad then we'll be on the right path for me.

 

Edit: I first went down VP under Taylor, I went down and watched his and Ron's and Little's sides a quite a lot. Then I left for London and then here, Ron was great and should't have got the chop when he did, had he been backed that summer instead then who knows...

Edited by romavillan
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5 minutes ago, romavillan said:

I think Smith given time will be a very good appointment, yes the last month has been shit, but we've had change from the very top all the way down, we still haven't hired all the recruitment side of things yet right? I'd expect some coaching appts too, it's all massive changes. The summer will bring a massive opportunity to rebuild, in this league or not. If we have the patience to let Smith build a squad then we'll be on the right path for me.

I can't see it happeneing myself Roma, but I will stand corrected if proven wrong.

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6 hours ago, Pimlico_Villa said:

The ‘doing their own thing’ is a hangover from Bruce, where there were no general tactics. Almost as if he said “you’re a good player, go out there and play” - and for that he was paid millions. 

I think the players still doing this now is a mix between confidence for some - where players have a safety first, sideways/backwards inclination - and for others just outright filthy laziness and poor fitness. 

To play in a joined up way requires movement, which in turn requires fitness, which in turn requires players to actually want to run. 

Hourihane plays in a position that can completely dictate the tempo of the game, but he is physically pathetic and appallingly lazy. He gets paid exactly the same whether he runs or not.

We should structure contracts so that players need to cover at least a certain distance in a forward direction in a match before being paid. 

 

You would never get a contract signed if you included such a caveat.

I am with you on the third line...it frightens me watching the passiveness from certain players at times....John McGinn has just become a folk hero for getting his foot in, that is how sad its become.

The tactics thing is a bit of a red herring for me, Bruce dismissed it, I am led to believe and other top managers have too.

quote : Brian Clough

On Football Tactics

  • “Players lose you games, not tactics....There is so much crap talked about tactics by people who barely know how to win a game of Dominoes”

I am not dismissing tactics out of hand, but I agree with cloughie....too much emphasis on it as a cop out....when players not doing there job , go undetected.
I think your other points are valid.
I think it needs a major culture change in the playing personnel.

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