Dean Smith

[TRO]

13 hours ago, fruitvilla said:

Just perhaps, he also sees stuff we don't see. On the field, on the training ground and in the gym.

Just because I would do things differently based on my limited weekly 90 min interaction with the players does not negate years of a coach's experience, training, and albeit Dean's limited professional experience on the pitch. 

As I have said before there is a plethora constraints that Dean is managing and we as fans and spectators have little inkling of.

ditto.

[Peter Griffin]

3 hours ago, CVByrne said:

This is a bizarre thread. Too many people nailed their colours to the Smith out mast and are now settling down for a mix of trench warfare and the cold war. 

it ruins debate when people nail their colours to either mast, whether that be Smith in or Smith out. Too many of the Smith in people just cannot see any wrong and won't contemplate that AV could possibly do better than Smith. Likewise the Smith out people tend not to see the good that Smith has done at Villa and that we could do worse than Smith. The bottom line is that it is somewhere in between Smith is brilliant and Smith is crap. It would be nice to be able to discuss BOTH strengths and weaknesses with some objectivity and less of the bias

Edited September 21, 2021 by Peter Griffin
Changed 'without' to 'with'

[Peter Griffin]

2 hours ago, skarroki said:

Liverpool lost 3-0 to Watford the season the won the league I believe? 

It doesn't really matter how good or bad the teams are that you pick up or drop points to imo. We just need to end the season with more wins than losses and that should be enough to end on comfortably more points than last season, which would all but guarantee top half. 

It's consistency in performance and cutting out silly errors that we need to work on, we give away too many goals and always have under DS. Second highest in the league for mistakes leading to goals again last season. I think that's our Achilles heel and if we cut that out and all the new players click it will be a very exciting season. 

I agree we need consistency but if we are to push for Europe we have to take more points from the weak teams. We will not take enough points from the top of the league to finish 7th or higher by dropping too many against weaker teams. And yes there will always be an upset result for teams but it is the consistency of the 'upset' against us that we must improve upon

[Zatman]

A lot of the Smith Out brigade come from his appointment and 2 years of been proven wrong. Sone of them even backed Bruce to the end 

[TRO]

10 hours ago, KMitch said:

I 100% disagree with this last line...  VillaTalk was in full doom and gloom mode the last week of the transfer window because we didn't sign a midfielder and there was a lot of criticism aimed directly at Smith for "not seeing and addressing something so obvious to most fans".  Lots of hot takes on McGinn and Dougie not being good enough for a top half team, the kids not Prem quality or ready yet, and even still Sanson is getting called a flop or "waste of a signing" by some around here when he hasn't kicked a ball in anger this season.  Some still are moaning on about the fact that if we had bought a new CM, it would have automatically made us contenders for Europe...

Fast forward to 5 games into the season and our central midfielders have arguably been our strongest unit so far.  McGinn is back to his old self, Dougie is getting better and better every week (he made the WhoScored team of the weekend yesterday), and young Jacob Ramsey has surpassed all our expectations and is looking like a future star in the making.  If it was up to VillaTalk/the fans, McGinn would have been benched, Douglas Luiz would be off to Roma for 20 million, and Ramsey would be at a mid table Championship club on loan while we have an 18 year old midfielder who only played ~20 games of professional football in France starting...

The point is, we don't know the full story.  Deano does and he hasn't let us down yet.  He took us from mid table in the Championship to mid table in the Prem in 3 seasons while playing some of the best football I've ever seen Villa play, but that still doesn't seem to be enough for some fans... 

I think the danger always lies in over stating a contrasting point, it invariably attracts another over stated rebuke....I think some of the critics have had a point, but equally you too make some valid observations, I agree with.....somewhere in between might be accurate.

• Dougie for me had one of his best games on Saturday, but was playing further forward as an 8 as opposed to a 6, something, I have been advocating. I hear Dean has suggested he might stay as an 8, we will see.
• Sanson has been so restricted with injuries, I am not sure, what to expect, but it seems he is more of an 8 too.
• John McGinn, seems to have lost some timber and looks fitter and stronger, back to his earlier best.
• Jacob has huge promise and is already adding a bit of an edge to his game, but is learning and it will take time for him to dominate the ball, but its moving in the right direction.
• Nakamba has shown huge signs of progress in his game, probabaly the only dedicated No 6 in the squad....played very well on Saturday, showed composure on the ball, needs to be consistent and we will save some money.

I think some of the critics want to be proved wrong, I certainly do and you can only report on what you see, not what you want to see.....and then its down to opinions.

One thing is for sure, We all want to see the ground rocking as it was on Saturday, yes, all of us.....Dean will preside over these games and the set backs, if he shows the overall progress that we have enjoyed over the last 3 years, he will be fine.....I have every confidence he will.

[Mantis]

6 hours ago, PussEKatt said:

Our record against the newly promoted this season

P2 D1L1

Good job we actually have 6 fixtures against newly promoted teams instead of just 2, and even better news for us that the table is only decided by the total points won over the course of a 38 game season.

[Peter Griffin]

4 minutes ago, TRO said:

if he shows the overall progress that we have enjoyed over the last 3 years, he will be fine

If he shows the overall progress over the last 3 in the years to come we will be doing a lot better than fine. We will be enjoying midweek football again. And I don't mean back down in the Championship 

[TRO]

37 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said:

it ruins debate when people nail their colours to either mast, whether that be Smith in or Smith out. Too many of the Smith in people just cannot see any wrong and won't contemplate that AV could possibly do better than Smith. Likewise the Smith out people tend not to see the good that Smith has done at Villa and that we could do worse than Smith. The bottom line is that it is somewhere in between Smith is brilliant and Smith is crap. It would be nice to be able to discuss BOTH strengths and weaknesses without some objectivity and less of the bias

I think the crucial point is Pete....Dean is not the finished article.

However, his obsession for learning is evident, Dean is a self confessed student of the game and I think he is a better manager now, than the one that walked in to Villa Park.

I have certain reservations, but I temper that with accepting, that not all managers have the same persona.....and not all great managers have the same persona.

I am more than happy with Dean and I am even more happy to say, I think there is more to come from him.

Its often been mooted, may be his profile is a bit subdued due to his past, but I think Dean will address that by what he does with us.....He will make his name, his profile, his legacy with us.

He can be up there, with some of the best managers we have ever had...its all to do......and its not over yet.

[Peter Griffin]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

I think the crucial point is Pete....Dean is not the finished article.

However, his obsession for learning is evident, Dean is a self confessed student of the game and I think he is a better manager now, than the one that walked in to Villa Park.

I have certain reservations, but I temper that with accepting, that not all managers have the same persona.....and not all great managers have the same persona.

I am more than happy with Dean and I am even more happy to say, I think there is more to come from him.

Its often been mooted, may be his profile is a bit subdued due to his past, but I think Dean will address that by what he does with us.....He will make his name, his profile, his legacy with us.

He can be up there, with some of the best managers we have ever had...its all to do......and its not over yet.

Yes, the fact the Dean is still learning is key. He will make mistakes and he has made mistakes but he is showing (much more recently) that he is learning from his mistakes. It is credit to CP and NSWE that they afford him the time to makes mistakes and learn from them. I think Jack leaving will be very good for Smith's development. It was very difficult to get away from the one player team tag and Smith can't win without Jack. These things undermined Smith's position. But with Jack gone Smith now has the ability to prove his worth without the accusations of inheriting a world class player. Some people still say Pep is over rated as his success at Barca was due to Messi. 

[TRO]

5 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said:

Yes, the fact the Dean is still learning is key. He will make mistakes and he has made mistakes but he is showing (much more recently) that he is learning from his mistakes. It is credit to CP and NSWE that they afford him the time to makes mistakes and learn from them. I think Jack leaving will be very good for Smith's development. It was very difficult to get away from the one player team tag and Smith can't win without Jack. These things undermined Smith's position. But with Jack gone Smith now has the ability to prove his worth without the accusations of inheriting a world class player. Some people still say Pep is over rated as his success at Barca was due to Messi. 

Pep has always maintained its about the players ( tongue in cheek, I guess) but he always takes the jobs with teams with great players, because he can. I have no doubt, he plays a huge part in developing them.

The journey with Dean is somewhat, more exciting, watching him grow, ably assisted by 2 fantastic owners....The cohesion and togetherness that appears from the hierarchy is as exciting as it is on the pitch.

[Pez1974]

Back to this thread in a while.....some really bizarre comments, albeit the most recent seem much more balanced.

For me - we are still a club coming out of a long standing crisis, ever since MON walked out. Smith is the first manager since then to give us a sense of stability, and hope - albeit based upon amazing owners.
He accepts his own limitations, and is improving. There are many clubs in this league who would probably love to have him as their manager as opposed to the one they have.
He loves the club - which does not excuse poor performance, but it is preferable to have someone in charge like this.
We are still improving, and have done every season. Right now, we are top half and have only had 1 game with a largely fit squad - following our club captain and supposed talisman deciding to take the cable car to the top, rather than earn it. 

Serious question - who the hell could we reasonably get who would do better?

I am not 'Smith In' or 'Smith Out'. I am a Villa fan who thinks our manager is, overall doing a good job. He needs to improve some areas - such as the use of subs - and if he doesn't and we stall in progress, then questions should be asked, and perhaps a change made. But any change would be a massive upheaval - as a club, that should not happen lightly.

[TRO]

7 minutes ago, Pez1974 said:

Back to this thread in a while.....some really bizarre comments, albeit the most recent seem much more balanced.

For me - we are still a club coming out of a long standing crisis, ever since MON walked out. Smith is the first manager since then to give us a sense of stability, and hope - albeit based upon amazing owners.
He accepts his own limitations, and is improving. There are many clubs in this league who would probably love to have him as their manager as opposed to the one they have.
He loves the club - which does not excuse poor performance, but it is preferable to have someone in charge like this.
We are still improving, and have done every season. Right now, we are top half and have only had 1 game with a largely fit squad - following our club captain and supposed talisman deciding to take the cable car to the top, rather than earn it. 

Serious question - who the hell could we reasonably get who would do better?

I am not 'Smith In' or 'Smith Out'. I am a Villa fan who thinks our manager is, overall doing a good job. He needs to improve some areas - such as the use of subs - and if he doesn't and we stall in progress, then questions should be asked, and perhaps a change made. But any change would be a massive upheaval - as a club, that should not happen lightly.

I think the sensitivity in the smith in or out comments, are the main concern.

I am with you....He is our manager, doing a damn fine job.....why is it even up for debate?.....it only creates division in the fan base, when there has hardly been a better time to be united.

[DCJonah]

1 hour ago, Peter Griffin said:

it ruins debate when people nail their colours to either mast, whether that be Smith in or Smith out. Too many of the Smith in people just cannot see any wrong and won't contemplate that AV could possibly do better than Smith. Likewise the Smith out people tend not to see the good that Smith has done at Villa and that we could do worse than Smith. The bottom line is that it is somewhere in between Smith is brilliant and Smith is crap. It would be nice to be able to discuss BOTH strengths and weaknesses with some objectivity and less of the bias

Have to disagree with this. I get the idea of balanced debate but also in this instance if we had a scale representing his time here, it wouldn't be balanced in the middle. It would be overwhelmingly tipped on the positive side. 

That's not to say its been perfect but when the positives far out weigh the negatives, I don't see the need to call for a balanced discussion because his achievements and the evidence we see aren't balanced at all.

Edited September 21, 2021 by DCJonah

[Woody1000]

9 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Have to disagree with this. I get the idea of balanced debate but also in this instance if we had a scale representing his time here, it wouldn't be balanced in the middle. It would be overwhelmingly tipped on the positive side. 

That's not to say its been perfect but when the positives far out weight the negatives, I don't see the need to call for a balanced discussion because his achievements and the evidence we see aren't balanced at all.

This.

I don’t think he’s perfect, and I’m sure neither do any of the other posters who generally post positively about our manager.

We have moved forward as a team every season, and it looks like this season could be yet another forward step but let’s keep it balanced for the posters who will always find something to moan about.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Woody1000

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Have to disagree with this. I get the idea of balanced debate but also in this instance if we had a scale representing his time here, it wouldn't be balanced in the middle. It would be overwhelmingly tipped on the positive side. 

That's not to say its been perfect but when the positives far out weight the negatives, I don't see the need to call for a balanced discussion because his achievements and the evidence we see aren't balanced at all.

I disagree with your interpretation of balanced too ....sure the positives outweigh the negatives, if you can call them that.....improvements should be welcome and debated, with impunity.

But you never mention anything that could be better....you say " thats not to say its been perfect"...but you conveniently dismiss anything adverse.....how can that be balanced.

We all agree Dean is doing a great job, but to suppress any notion of imperfections is hardly balanced and you are particularly good at that.

 

[DCJonah]

3 minutes ago, TRO said:

I disagree with your interpretation of balanced too ....sure the positives outweigh the negatives, if you can call them that.....improvements should be welcome and debated, with impunity.

But you never mention anything that could be better....you say " thats not to say its been perfect"...but you conveniently dismiss anything adverse.....how can that be balanced.

We all agree Dean is doing a great job, but to suppress any notion of imperfections is hardly balanced and you are particularly good at that.

 

I don't feel any need to be balanced on this subject. As I said, it's not needed.

An extreme example but it would be the same if we were talking about anti vax protests, I would feel no need to present a balanced argument on the subject. 

Dean Smith has been fantastic for us. Has moved this club forward and what ever happens will leave a legacy for us to build on. 

There's nothing that needs to be added to balance out that so those that have always moaned can still have one. 

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, Woody1000 said:

This.

I don’t think he’s perfect, and I’m sure neither do any of the other posters who generally post positively about our manager.

We have moved forward as a team every season, and it looks like this season could be yet another forward step but let’s keep it balanced for the posters who will always find something to moan about.

Woody, its not a case of Moaning, its more a case of concern.....whats wrong with constructive criticsm, providing it is delivered without prejudice or malice.

I think any poster, who consistently posts with a view that is seen to be all positive or all negative is open to be questioned on balance.

not everything is good or bad....It is balanced to comment accordingly.

At present, everything is rosey and it is right to reflect that, but if it changes for the worst ( god forbid) is it not fair to reflect that too.

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

I don't feel any need to be balanced on this subject. As I said, it's not needed.

An extreme example but it would be the same if we were talking about anti vax protests, I would feel no need to present a balanced argument on the subject. 

Dean Smith has been fantastic for us. Has moved this club forward and what ever happens will leave a legacy for us to build on. 

There's nothing that needs to be added to balance out that so those that have always moaned can still have one. 

I wasn't expecting you to agree...and your reponse is predictable.

but maybe seeing the other side of the coin once in a while, might enlighten you.

and Yes, he has been fantastic for us.

[Adam2003]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

Dougie for me had one of his best games on Saturday, but was playing further forward as an 8 as opposed to a 6, something, I have been advocating. I hear Dean has suggested he might stay as an 8, we will see.

Seen a couple of people saying this about a position shift but he was still our most defensive midfielder wasn’t he? Is it just that we were getting all our midfielders further forward (in the same way as Kovacic, Jorginho, Kante are all defensive but still get forward for Chelsea)? And is that because we had control of the ball or because with three centre backs they didn’t need to sit as deep?

[TRO]

1 minute ago, Adam2003 said:

Seen a couple of people saying this about a position shift but he was still our most defensive midfielder wasn’t he? Is it just that we were getting all our midfielders further forward (in the same way as Kovacic, Jorginho, Kante are all defensive but still get forward for Chelsea)? And is that because we had control of the ball or because with three centre backs they didn’t need to sit as deep?

possibly, yes.