Dean Smith

[Vive_La_Villa]

I get constructive criticism. It’s what forums are all about.

But I honestly think some of our fans have been spoilt by the fact we have progressed so quickly. A week away from administration to a mid table Premier League in 3 seasons with FFP constraints is quite an achievement. 

The lack of perspective amazes me at times. 

[KentVillan]

3 hours ago, Rightdm00 said:

Why does everyone keep mentioning money like we have spent more than those around us. Sheffield United spent £70 million, Wolves £90 million, Spurs £115 million. Our outlay of about £100 million a year is solidly average for the modern day PL. Nothing special. It's what you have to spend to just stay competitive. 

It's why this summer we will likely see a similar number spent but on targets who are either under valued or young and full of potential. It's the only way we can compete baring a Man City like £200 million plus outlay. 

I’m talking about the amount of money being invested season after season into the club.

You need to look at net spend over a 5-year period. Last year we were 9th on that figure. I think this will be a big summer of increased spend, so we will be climbing up and outspending clubs around us.

It’s easy to cherrypick a one off big summer of spending, or to ignore the fact that some clubs finance their deals by selling.

To say we’re spending at a similar level to Sheffield Utd is just factually wrong.

[KentVillan]

2 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I get constructive criticism. It’s what forums are all about.

But I honestly think some of our fans have been spoilt by the fact we have progressed so quickly. A week away from administration to a mid table Premier League in 3 seasons with FFP constraints is quite an achievement. 

The lack of perspective amazes me at times. 

I agree but equally some people are reacting to realistic expectations of improvement (now we’re stable in the PL) as if they’re greedy / spoilt / insane. I don’t get this attitude either.

[villalad21]

4 hours ago, sne said:

Remember when the "Dean Smith teams can't defend" was repeatedly banded out by a select few last season. 15 clean sheets now in the league, joint club record in PL with the 95/96 & 09/10 season.

Only City and Chelsea are better in that regard. 

We also didn't have a world class keeper in previous seasons. 

I still feel Emi is being overworked and our defence are having way too  much defending to do for my liking. Much of it has to do with a midfield offering zero protection and not being able to keep the ball. 

I'd be interested to know where Emi ranks in the amount of shots against.  *edit just fact checked and last season we had the most shots against, this season we rank 7th. Although it is an improvement it certainly isn't good. And considering the great defenders we have I don't think we should concede as many shots against as we are. 

Edited May 14, 2021 by villalad21

[Sulberto21]

I remember one of then then European giants' manager mentioning (after a disastrous season) that the cycle of the core of most squads last about 7/8 years before they need starting to be overhauled and it takes around 3 seasons to get that core correct.

He also mentioned that if you keep tweaking the squad and adding to the core playing group then if they're young enough keep most of the core group together for longer.

I think Dean is about a window or two away from having his main core group.

[Rightdm00]

1 hour ago, KentVillan said:

I’m talking about the amount of money being invested season after season into the club.

You need to look at net spend over a 5-year period. Last year we were 9th on that figure. I think this will be a big summer of increased spend, so we will be climbing up and outspending clubs around us.

It’s easy to cherrypick a one off big summer of spending, or to ignore the fact that some clubs finance their deals by selling.

To say we’re spending at a similar level to Sheffield Utd is just factually wrong.

What does net spend have to do with Dean?  He wasn't here when the previous managers cocked up all those transfer. In the end you either spend roughly £80-100 million year in transfers or you risk falling behind your PL competition. 

[nick76]

10 minutes ago, Rightdm00 said:

What does net spend have to do with Dean?  He wasn't here when the previous managers cocked up all those transfer. In the end you either spend roughly £80-100 million year in transfers or you risk falling behind your PL competition. 

Plus net spend is fine if comparing like with like but other teams are selling PL players they brought previously whereas we’ve just come from the Championship, which wasn’t Dean’s fault we were there.  If I sell my 3 year old BMW for a new BMW, of course my net spend is going to be a lot lower than if I’ve just sold my BMX bike and brought a new BMW because we’ve stepped up a big level.

[KentVillan]

36 minutes ago, Rightdm00 said:

What does net spend have to do with Dean?  He wasn't here when the previous managers cocked up all those transfer. In the end you either spend roughly £80-100 million year in transfers or you risk falling behind your PL competition. 

Most of the net spend has been under Dean. You’re just ignoring the point that we have top 10 highest net spend in the league, and will likely be top 8 on net spend after this summer.

I’m not attacking Smith at all, I think he’s a quality manager, but bottom half next season will be a failure, and it’s reasonable to point to all the investment in the club (over several seasons now) as reason for expecting a top half finish as “par” in 2021/22.

[KentVillan]

25 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Plus net spend is fine if comparing like with like but other teams are selling PL players they brought previously whereas we’ve just come from the Championship, which wasn’t Dean’s fault we were there.  If I sell my 3 year old BMW for a new BMW, of course my net spend is going to be a lot lower than if I’ve just sold my BMX bike and brought a new BMW because we’ve stepped up a big level.

Obviously, but we’re not talking about Chelsea etc here - we’re talking about clubs like Wolves, Everton, Newcastle, Brighton etc. They’ve all had their fair share of transfer horror shows and bad management.

Net spend over last 5 years is as good a measure as any really. Sure you can pick holes in it, and last season was unique because we had such a big clear out. But we are basically now a mid table team again, and expectations surely rise?

Could Smith survive a bottom half finish next season? I don’t think so. I back him, though, and think we’ll be fighting for 7th or 8th, assuming we keep Jack and keep him fit.

[Rightdm00]

10 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

Most of the net spend has been under Dean. You’re just ignoring the point that we have top 10 highest net spend in the league, and will likely be top 8 on net spend after this summer.

I’m not attacking Smith at all, I think he’s a quality manager, but bottom half next season will be a failure, and it’s reasonable to point to all the investment in the club (over several seasons now) as reason for expecting a top half finish as “par” in 2021/22.

I don't get the use of net spend to judge a manager's success.  If a manager blows £100 million on poor transfers he should be fired. It doesn't matter if his net spend was £0. 

It's £100 million wasted either way. 

[useless]

He's the manager, it's the real thing

Edited May 14, 2021 by useless

[vreitti]

5 hours ago, nick76 said:

Completely agree and the teams we are trying to compete with have a starting advantage of seasons to build their squad and we are only into our second season playing catch up.

Sure, but look at Leeds, it's their first season ya know

[Vive_La_Villa]

Our first team squad when we got promoted:

Nyland, Steer, Kalanic, Elmo, Guilbert, Taylor, Hourihane, Gardner, Mcginn, Davis. 
 

If our net spent wasn’t high, not only would we have got relegated, we’d have struggled to field a team. 

[Rightdm00]

13 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Our first team squad when we got promoted:

Nyland, Steer, Kalanic, Elmo, Guilbert, Taylor, Hourihane, Gardner, Mcginn, Davis. 
 

If our net spent wasn’t high, not only would we have got relegated, we’d have struggled to field a team. 

That's my point really. If the owners hadn't spent then the club would have been back in the Championship worth f*ck all.  

 

[nick76]

19 minutes ago, vreitti said:

Sure, but look at Leeds, it's their first season ya know

Haha yeah like Sheff Utd their first season and then

[tomav84]

12 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

edit: We’ve scored 10 goals from set pieces this season. 6th best in the league. 

Interested to know how many were corners 

We seem to threaten from wide free kicks but never corners 

[nick76]

35 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

Obviously, but we’re not talking about Chelsea etc here - we’re talking about clubs like Wolves, Everton, Newcastle, Brighton etc. They’ve all had their fair share of transfer horror shows and bad management.

Net spend over last 5 years is as good a measure as any really. Sure you can pick holes in it, and last season was unique because we had such a big clear out. But we are basically now a mid table team again, and expectations surely rise?

Could Smith survive a bottom half finish next season? I don’t think so. I back him, though, and think we’ll be fighting for 7th or 8th, assuming we keep Jack and keep him fit.

Not talking about horror shows but our players from the championship were never likely to get big sale fees whereas players we buy were always going to be of material value.  Net spend is a poor measure when you are comparing newly promoted teams compared to teams that have been in the league for many years because the value of your players being sold will likely be vastly different.

In answer to the Smith question it will depend on many factors from investment to injuries.  If Jack gets injured early on and we aren’t successful or don’t really invest then you can easily see us finishing between 8th and 12th again because our team and squad currently is a mid table team.  It would then be arguably unfair to sack Smith if we do end at the lower end.  

So for me I can’t assess what would be reasonable until I’ve seen who we bring in in the summer.  We’ve had three seasons of growth and now we are hitting the top end so I could easily see us hitting around 10th/11th place and being happy with it and seeing as a consolidation season.  I’m obviously hoping for a lot better but a lot of factors will come into it.

[KentVillan]

All fair points @nick76 - and yes, if there's mitigating circumstances (eg a long-term injury to Jack, or losing several first team players) then I think most sensible fans will be understanding.

I'm basing a lot what I'm saying on the anticipation that this summer will be BIG. I think all the noises suggest this will be a summer where the owners start flexing their muscles a bit, and going after statement signings. Partly to keep Jack at the club, partly because we no longer look like relegation fodder to agents, and partly because FFP seems to be less of a concern now.

So maybe I'm jumping the gun a bit. My sense is we'll be going into next season with a squad that we'll be very excited about. Solid at the back, with more energy and creativity in midfield, and a few options up top. We'll also see some more of our youth prospects getting minutes. Dean will have a lot more options at his disposal than he's had the last 2 years in the Prem.

[nick76]

11 hours ago, KentVillan said:

All fair points @nick76 - and yes, if there's mitigating circumstances (eg a long-term injury to Jack, or losing several first team players) then I think most sensible fans will be understanding.

I'm basing a lot what I'm saying on the anticipation that this summer will be BIG. I think all the noises suggest this will be a summer where the owners start flexing their muscles a bit, and going after statement signings. Partly to keep Jack at the club, partly because we no longer look like relegation fodder to agents, and partly because FFP seems to be less of a concern now.

So maybe I'm jumping the gun a bit. My sense is we'll be going into next season with a squad that we'll be very excited about. Solid at the back, with more energy and creativity in midfield, and a few options up top. We'll also see some more of our youth prospects getting minutes. Dean will have a lot more options at his disposal than he's had the last 2 years in the Prem.

I guess I’m just being a bit more cautious because fans get too excited too quickly and then get angry and unreasonable when we aren’t smashing it out the park when in real terms we are doing really well.

I think we’ll have a great summer but what I think will be a great summer compared to others maybe different.

[DCJonah]

13 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Our first team squad when we got promoted:

Nyland, Steer, Kalanic, Elmo, Guilbert, Taylor, Hourihane, Gardner, Mcginn, Davis. 
 

If our net spent wasn’t high, not only would we have got relegated, we’d have struggled to field a team. 

As you said previously. 

Serious lack of perspective at times.