Dean Smith

[foreveryoung]

9 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

On the other had, saying he is a "legend" or similar (see above) is equally ludicrous.

This whole debate is too extreme on both sides.

He clearly has some strengths and has had a good season. No one is going to sack him.

However, he also has clear weaknesses and my worry is these are in areas which may hamper our progress as a PL team. 

But we need to see how he finishes this season and what progress we make next before those issues can seriously be weighed up.

Exactly where I am! 

[Mark Albrighton]

27 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I try to get behind the team. Failing that I go for a beer. Can’t recall ever turning on Smith though.  
 

Anyway point of my post was that the match thread isn’t a place to gage peoples views on the manager. 

At the same time I don’t think it can be stated that “no F**** wants Smith out” when at the same time there have been several posters stating they think it should happen.

The knee jerk reaction of a match thread can only excuse so much. What next? Should we ignore any posts made in this thread directly after a match because everyone’s emotions from a poor game are still a bit raw? Should we all have a couple of hours cooling off period after every game so people can collect themselves and then write posts that they’re prepared to stand by or justify?

People who write posts to the effect of “Smith out”, they should either stand by it or acknowledge they were being reactionary. I would respect either. I wouldn’t agree with the former, but I’d appreciate the honesty. What I don’t appreciate is either pretending it doesn’t happen or ignoring it then claiming no one is posting it.

[Tumblerseven]

1 hour ago, Tommo_b said:

No not in the slightest, how can you have a moan up about subs and not being a good manager for not making subs and then when it goes in Deans favour that we then have to molly coddle those fans who are critical?

Are you telling me that had he not made a sub and lost the game that suddenly those that called for him to make a sub are now validated instead?

Sorry it doesn’t work that way.

Damned if you do damned if you don’t in this rhetoric. 

Because it doesnt matter if it went in deans favour you seem not to understand this. Yes you can win by making incorect action and yes you can lose by making correct action.

If there is a football match from what is hapening on that football pitch by analizing an seeing events you can decide what is correct action to change things and incorect action. I dont look at that as just an opinion.

X player got injured. Action of what are we goying to do is not just opinion i think there is corect action and incorect action. I think you agree correct action is to sub injured player.

Dean1: Makes corect action we won. Its all good and he made correct action.

Dean2: Makes incorect  action we won. Its good but he made incorect action. Thats reasonable criticism by the way not MOANING.

Dean3. Makes correct action we won. Well it happens but bravo he made correct action.

 

If we talk about rhetoric your rhetoric is actualy sounds concerning.

It sounds like you saying if fans complain or criticise manager in match thread and we win they had to be wrong and unreasonable by default. And if they where moaning or criticising manager we cant molly coddle them after???? what does that mean???  um...what should we do exactly?

Edited May 3, 2021 by Tumblerseven

[DCJonah]

11 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

Because it doesnt matter if it went in deans favour you seem not to understand this. Yes you can win by making incorect action and yes you can lose by making correct action.

If there is a football match from what is hapening on that football pitch by analizing an seeing events you can decide what is correct action to change things and incorect action. I dont look at that as just an opinion.

X player got injured. Action of what are we goying to do is not just opinion i think there is corect action and incorect action. I think you agree correct action is to sub injured player.

Dean1: Makes corect action we won. Its all good and he made correct action.

Dean2: Makes incorect  action we won. Its good but he made incorect action. Thats reasonable criticism by the way not MOANING.

Dean3. Makes correct action we won. Well it happens but bravo he made correct action.

 

If we talk about rhetoric your rhetoric is actualy sounds concerning.

It sounds like you saying if fans complain or criticise manager in match thread and we win they had to be wrong and unreasonable by default. And if they where moaning or criticising manager we cant molly coddle them after???? what does that mean???  um...what should we do exactly?

Who gets to decide its incorrect? 

[foreveryoung]

My belief is to never over analyse on a forum. It's mostly opinions, by a range of fans with differing attitudes, personalities, most we do not know. Many of the arguments on this thread stem from Smith getting us to midtable so many now think he is devoid of criticism.

An example would be losing 3-0 at half time, end up winning 4-3, but not be able to have a negative opinion because we won the game.

[Vive_La_Villa]

41 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

On the other had, saying he is a "legend" or similar (see above) is equally ludicrous.

This whole debate is too extreme on both sides.

He clearly has some strengths and has had a good season. No one is going to sack him.

However, he also has clear weaknesses and my worry is these are in areas which may hamper our progress as a PL team. 

But we need to see how he finishes this season and what progress we make next before those issues can seriously be weighed up.

Some might consider him a legend for getting us promoted.  We could have been stuck in that league a very long time.

[Tumblerseven]

7 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Who gets to decide its incorrect? 

Doesnt matter who gets to decide it doesnt change the fact that there is correct action and incorect action.

[Tommo_b]

36 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

Because it doesnt matter if it went in deans favour you seem not to understand this. Yes you can win by making incorect action and yes you can lose by making correct action.

If there is a football match from what is hapening on that football pitch by analizing an seeing events you can decide what is correct action to change things and incorect action. I dont look at that as just an opinion.

X player got injured. Action of what are we goying to do is not just opinion i think there is corect action and incorect action. I think you agree correct action is to sub injured player.

Dean1: Makes corect action we won. Its all good and he made correct action.

Dean2: Makes incorect  action we won. Its good but he made incorect action. Thats reasonable criticism by the way not MOANING.

Dean3. Makes correct action we won. Well it happens but bravo he made correct action.

 

If we talk about rhetoric your rhetoric is actualy sounds concerning.

It sounds like you saying if fans complain or criticise manager in match thread and we win they had to be wrong and unreasonable by default. And if they where moaning or criticising manager we cant molly coddle them after???? what does that mean???  um...what should we do exactly?

Ahhh so it’s only a correct or incorrect action according to your narrative, gotcha. 

[cheltenham_villa]

1 hour ago, foreveryoung said:

Sorry, but this is a load on Bollox, especially the last bit

I will always want a manager who brings us success, I'm sure Smith is doing the job to the best of his ability, but if at any stage he reaches the ceiling of his ability, I will be more than happy for another manager to take the reigns, to bring us the success we desire.

Dont apologise, everyone gets an opinion. Mine is I couldn't give a shit about things like the top 4 or the perceived success of being a mid table prem side. I'd love to win trophies but the most important thing for me these days is knowing i get to support the club every year and that the fan base has some form of connection  to how the club is run.

Weve had too many years where quite frankly VP has been a horrible place to attend.

[Tumblerseven]

13 minutes ago, Tommo_b said:

Ahhh so it’s only a correct or incorrect action according to your narrative, gotcha. 

So wait are you saying that you actually think its all just an opinion and there is no correct action??

So why the hell are you mad when people express theyr opinions on match thread its just an opinion by your own reasoning.Freedom of expresion and speech they can say whatever they want right?

Edited May 3, 2021 by Tumblerseven

[Tommo_b]

4 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

So wait are you saying that you actually think its all just an opinion and there is no correct action??

So why the hell are you mad when people express theyr opinions on match thread its just an opinion by your own reasoning.Freedom of expresion and speech they can say whatever they want right?

Not mad... crack on. 

[Dave-R]

1 hour ago, MotoMkali said:

Again arguing in bad faith. I've never said el ghazi is not a flawed player. He is a deeply flawed player he is inconsistent and not always great. But he is good enough for where we are right now and good enough as a backup for where we want to be. All my posts in the summer transfer window are about signing a new LW. You can't turn the head coach into a backup though without replacing them.

Lying and misquoting like you always **** do. It is embarrassing arguing with you because it is like arguing with a 3 year old who makes bullshit up incessantly. 

Did I say anywhere he hasn't done well from when he first took over? But the fact is we could and should be better this season even without Jack. We have shown it in pretty mcub every game we played even without Jack what we could do if we actually tried to attack and play passing football and I'm almost certain the lack of willingness to attack isn't coming from our players. 

Are you really that bonkers to think we should be better than what weve accomplished this season with or without Jack?? I think it's crazy to even come out with that. For a start we were so close last season being relegated out the league and barely survived it. To even suggest we would do much much better than that I would say is a 3 year olds brain at work.

No one is argueing in bad faith, I certainly wasn't argueing with you until you responded with that post, bit uncalled for. Thanks for calling me a deceiver, a lyer and a misquoter though you seem to like labelling people around here so it's okay carry on. I am telling you what you are doing which is attacking one person who has been more consistent in his duty to the club than the other who is a player who has been less consistent in his role, far less consistent that you repeatedly defend whenever anyone makes a comment on him. You make no sense because you attack the one that's doing a grand job, the best job with what he has available. You try to make out that he should have us perform better yet you always jump down everyone's throats whenever anyone has something to say like that about Ghazi. 

See I was just talking about what you wrote, I was not calling you this that and the other like you have just done, do you enjoy attacking people on forums, it's sad, keep it to the football.

By saying we should of done better you are in turn saying Smith hasn't done well, you are saying he hasn't done what he should of this season and that is like saying he hasn't done enough for where we are now.

The players go out there and they are the ones who finally play the game. Smith can give those players all the advice under the sun, but the moment they walk onto that pitch it's really down to the players and out of Smith's hands. Smith can give them all the knowledge he thinks that can win the game, yet if players don't listen and they choose to play a game differently then it can all go south. Between Smith and our players though not every game can always be won, and I think we have over achieved this season. I certainly wasn't expecting us to be where we are and I find it hard to believe that you think we should be doing much better than what we have achieved already this season.

I very much doubt our Owners think that Smith has under achieved so far this season. I feel confident in that they are pleased with everything that has happened this season and that they understand that hiccups can happen along the way. I also feel confident that our Owners will put a nice big pot of gold for Lange, Smith and Purslow to go spend in the summer.

How are you going to feel next season if we don't quite hit the mark we have this season? are you going to be expecting Smith to be sacked?  It would still be a wrong call, while ever we are still sorting the squad out which may take another couple of season before we add major quality (maybe we get lucky one summer, hopefully this summer on serious quality). So long as we are maintaining what we have and there is no danger in relegation, then pulling the plug on Smith may not be the best idea. There is also no guarantee that if we were to get rid of Smith that anyone who comes in can do a much better job. If Smith were replaced at anytime I would expect someone really capable at the job to come in, someone who is known for challenging at the top of this table, I would expect our Owners to go and spend on someone big.

[weedman]

1 hour ago, Tumblerseven said:

So wait are you saying that you actually think its all just an opinion and there is no correct action??

So why the hell are you mad when people express theyr opinions on match thread its just an opinion by your own reasoning.Freedom of expresion and speech they can say whatever they want right?

Here's the difference between someone having an opinion which no-one will get annoyed about 

"I think we need fresh legs on, I wish Dean made earlier subs sometimes" 

And here is what actually happens 

"wtf is Smith doing not making subs?! Time to start looking for a replacement, we need a proactive manager" 

Can you see the difference? 

[vreitti]

2 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

Many of the arguments on this thread stem from Smith getting us to midtable so many now think he is devoid of criticism.

This is another false narrative that gets repeated almost daily. I swear I've not seen a single post on here, saying Dean is beyond criticism. Actually it's opposite, almost everyone singing his praises, also recognize he's still learning. 

[Tumblerseven]

43 minutes ago, weedman said:

Here's the difference between someone having an opinion which no-one will get annoyed about 

"I think we need fresh legs on, I wish Dean made earlier subs sometimes" 

And here is what actually happens 

"wtf is Smith doing not making subs?! Time to start looking for a replacement, we need a proactive manager" 

Can you see the difference? 

I dont think im coming off so much unreasonable that you would have an opinion of me that maybe i dont see the diference. 

So i just want you to confirm are those unreasonable opinions in this thread or match thread? Because i just went to match thread its really not that bad. 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Tumblerseven

[VillanousOne]

I think most people like Dean, love what he does well and hope we continue to improve with him at the helm. The fact he is a Villa fan is just the cherry on the cake.

I think the same people see that he has some flaws and have concerns, but would agree the overall picture is steady, maybe unspectacular but promising.

What he does or doesn't do well/enough or should do more or less of is always going to be opinion as we don't get the same perspective as he does, we don't know the players, what they do in training, what else is going on in the background. But it's a forum it's fine to speculate, no manager should be beyond criticism as long as people are balanced and also call out the positives and not just the negatives. This season has messed with a lot of heads because there has been no middle ground, when we've been good we've looked like a top 8 team, when we've been bad we've looked like a relegation threatened team. 

We seem to get a group of people who get slated for criticising Dean and another group who get slated for constantly defending him. I wonder if people think he will read this forum and quit if someone says he is sh*t at making substitutes.

We all probably need to accept that If the owners continue to back Dean with the transfers/players he needs and wants then expectations of him as a manager will continue to grow. But I think the owners also see Dean as part of the long term future of the club.

Edited May 3, 2021 by VillanousOne

[Villan_of_oz]

We shouldn't finish lower than 11th, which is definitely job done.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

For me this is all relatively simple.

We've seen how effective Smithball can be when given the right personnel in the final 3rd. Yes, this is exaggerated when Grealish is in the side. He's one of the best players in the world and as a result, Smith has (rightly IMO) built the side around that talent. However, we saw on Saturday that even having a player a level below that in any kind of form, just somebody to receive the ball in the final 3rd, put their foot on it and pick a pass or two to spread the play as Barkley did, can have such a positive effect on the system overall. 

He hasn't had that, at all, for months. None of them have stepped up. But as soon as one of them has, the rest have followed. Traore was able to spin more magic simply by virtue of having somebody on his inside who had to be watched, thereby creating space for him to break out the wand. The entire team moved the ball quicker in transition, knowing they could rely on their creative player(s) not to give it straight back to the opposition, putting them under pressure when at their most vulnerable.

The argument should be if we give him better players, and a fit Jack Grealish, then can he produce even more on a more consistent basis? If Barkley, as an example, had been putting in just the minimum expected performance like he did on Saturday for the last 2 months, would this even be a question? I suspect not.

Edited May 3, 2021 by dont_do_it_doug.

[PaulC]

8 hours ago, Phil Silvers said:

 

I think its a reasonable target if we finish 9/10 this year, doubt our target will be sideways.

Deano has improved us both years so it's entirely feasible that he might do that again, albeit at the very top now and will be the biggest test and would be very impressive if we get there.

OGS and Arteta are bang average, Spurs unknown, I think Citeh, Pool, Chelsea and Leics are top4 for me, then we have to be forcing our way in to the mix for best of the rest.

It won't be easy thats for sure but I would hope to be fighting the rest from 5/10th.

Unrealistic? We are close to it this year, with Jack and without covid, I'd like to think we would have at least 12 more points, so with investment and the main man back, why can't we mix it with the above.

Hope that comes across as hopeful and positive, it will be tough but we have hope.

 

 

We cant compete with Man U so 6th will probably be the best we can hope for next season. its really hard to break into the elite. Leicester have done great to do so 

[briny_ear]

4 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Some might consider him a legend for getting us promoted.  We could have been stuck in that league a very long time.

When he was floundering a bit last season, of course, many of his apologists were arguing we got promoted "a season too soon" (as if you can determine when you get promoted!). So I assume he wasn't a legend then because he had landed us in a perilous situation? 

Anyway, enough of this. I am aware that there are some who think that Smith is the Messiah and they won't be persuaded otherwise, certainly not by facts or experience. It's not worth taking up the cudgels. 

What will be will be in terms of how his teams progress and I'm pretty certain that, if he doesn't make us more consistent, more resilient, and more capable of achieving and maintaining a challenge to the top 6, then the legend will be looking for a new bag. Don't think the NSWE investment is about creating a team that blows hot and cold, finds it almost impossible to come back from going behind and is so dependant on one phenomenally good player. So we will see.