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6 hours ago, TRO said:

The harder you work the luckier you get....it kinda played out tonight.....not saying Leeds were lucky, they just out worked us and then built on it.

Deano said in his pre-match press conference that Leeds are the fittest team in the league and we'd have to work hard to match them - we didn't.

I remember one particular attack down their left where a player had the ball and was looking to take on Cash. Another player was bombing forward to support him and McGinn just casually strolled back in a straight line and not doing anything to thwart the danger of the runner. 

I wonder if those international games took their toll on McGinn? He looked off the pace of that game. Maybe Nakamba should have got a game.

It's a wake-up call for us. We played well in parts and at half time I fancied us to come out and repeat the first half but be more clinical in front of goal. It happened the other was around. 

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I think a change that could've been made earlier would have been to take off Trez, put Watkins wide right and tell him to concentrate on doubling up with Cash, then put on Davis with the instruction to not allow Ayling any time at all on the ball. We could have then looked to hit Davis with the long clearances and hope for him to hold it up and bring others into play. 

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4 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Dont care what anyone says biesla is a bloody brilliant coach

I recon they could be on 40-45 points before a burn out even happens.

They'll be absolutely fine this season and so will we.

Talking about burnouts. We may face the same problems ourselves if Smith keeps persisting in only using 12 players.

Edited by villalad21
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9 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Dont care what anyone says biesla is a bloody brilliant coach

He is, to take what us effectively a bunch of average players (excluding phillips), and get them playing like that is a credit to bielsa.

Smith saying we had to match their intensity was a mistake tbh, you can't match their intensity, you can only wear them down (or get as fit as them - but we aren't)

As I have said before, I don't like the bielsa circle jerk, but you also can't deny what he has done with Leeds is super impressive.

I don't think there are many coaches out there who on paper could keep that Leeds team up, but he will do that and more getting 100% out of the players he has.

 

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21 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

Love Smith, but should have changed it last night at half time. We were being thoroughly outplayed. 

I’m not sure we were being outplayed in the first half but there were warning signs certainly. If we’d have put away one of our chances at 0-0 perhaps the game would have been different. However second half, particularly once they got in front, we were certainly outplayed. 

Bielsa is a very good coach and gets more out of his team than the sum of the parts. Like a lot of people though I’m sick of hearing  about him and Leeds. The commentator banged on about them moving in to a CL place and added dismissively that we remain 2nd. 
 

Still plenty of room for improvement for us. I’m sure Smith would agree he can learn a lot from an experienced coach like Bielsa and I’m sure he will. The great thing now is that we have a team of coaches all working together. 

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4 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

I’m not sure we were being outplayed in the first half but there were warning signs certainly. If we’d have put away one of our chances at 0-0 perhaps the game would have been different. However second half, particularly once they got in front, we were certainly outplayed. 

Bielsa is a very good coach and gets more out of his team than the sum of the parts. Like a lot of people though I’m sick of hearing  about him and Leeds. The commentator banged on about them moving in to a CL place and added dismissively that we remain 2nd. 
 

Still plenty of room for improvement for us. I’m sure Smith would agree he can learn a lot from an experienced coach like Bielsa and I’m sure he will. The great thing now is that we have a team of coaches all working together. 

They made us look like a League 2 side yesterday.

The media attention is 100 % justified if they keep putting in performances like that.

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10 hours ago, KentVillan said:

Looking back at it... on another day we could have been 3-0 up. Grealish chance denied on line, very clear penalty shout, and that Grealish solo run.

Where I was disappointed was with the lack of reaction to the changing dynamic of the game. Both from Smith and from the players. I thought we lost the plot a bit.

Plenty to think about. Bad day in the office rather than a major disaster. Hope we can get back to winning ways ASAP.

I don't want to over react to this and in my opinion, the game against Southampton will say a lot about last nights game.

I thought we had turned the corner in terms of being so open but I am not so sure now, it seems it is still in our DNA. I don't think a bad day at the office is an accurate description, their intensity, urgency and sheer willingness to work, dismantled us.....There will always be moments in a game where a goal can turn it and its clear to me we rely on that more than some teams.....let me explain in boxing terms......A boxer gets a few knock downs early in the fight, but his opponent is way ahead on points scoring body punches, punches to the head and is basically working his man harder......eventually that hard work reaps dividends and the one with the few knock downs tires and his legs get weary and the boxer who has thrown all the punches gains confidence and hits his own counter knock downs.......Moments are great in the game, and they can change games, but we need more energy and intensity to work our opponent with too, not JUST rely on moments

Its hard to criticise a team that has had such a good start as us, but lets be clear here, so have Leeds had a good start too......man for man we was probaly better than them on paper, collectively they gave us a lesson.

I am not so sure its just one of those nights, Biesla carefully planned to cut the head off the snake and it worked.....our midfield was negated, if you give them time and space on the ball, they are great, but suffocate and stifle them and they are lost, with little to fight back with, it was mooted that we had too many creative players on show, it could be a point, because we allowed ourselves to be bullied.....I would have been tempted to bring Elmo on in place of Trez to help Cash, where most of the real damage was coming from.

We need to carefully evaluate that performance and get back to post Lockdown, because that had shades of pre lockdown.

I also thought there was signs of the 23/12/2018 game where another Jack, Jack Clarke run riot and another 3 were dispatched by Leeds......I knew this game would be difficult, but not as emphatic as I think it was.

 

Edited by TRO
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6 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

They made us look like a League 2 side yesterday.

The media attention is 100 % justified if they keep putting in performances like that.

We have clearly raised the bar in terms on individual player quality, but the collective quality was missing last night, we went back to a bunch of individuals struggling to win their individual duels.....they doubled and trebled up on us and we had no answer, subsequently something had to give and it did.They supported each other like we didn't and the goals just supported their superiority of play.

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Not sure Smith got it wrong really, even with 4-5 of the lads looking out of sorts it was very open and pretty even until that first goal. They made some decent chances, but If either of Grealish's efforts go in, we probably would have gone on to win it. Not much Smith could do once Bamford scored, our players looked shell shocked, like they'd forgotten what it was like to concede/go behind (which is mad really). Smith tried a change to get back in and Bamford hit scored immediately, which totally broke us. Hopefully this is just a blip and we can get on track against Southampton. 

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To be honest it's one game and the start we've had is better than I expected. So I don't think one result justifies laying into the manager too much. However, I would like to make a few points.

 

A lot of people on here made a similar sort of remark about Bielsa that Gabby did during the week, that he was a myth and overrated. But what Bielsa has done with Leeds is nothing short of extraordinary. I've always rated him as a manager and can see why Leeds are so excited to have him there, he's simply a better manager than Smith. Last night when they had a guy on a yellow he made a change after just 20 minutes. You would never see Smith do that. Leeds go into every game, regardless of the team, looking to dominate and more often than not they do. Bielsa has made average Championship players like Ayling, Dallas, Bamford, Harrison and Shackleton look the part in the greatest league in the world. Everyone said last season that Dean didn't have the players, that we basically had a Championship team, well that Leeds team last night (other than maybe Koch) looked every bit the Championship team but certainly didn't play like it. 

 

I just feel tactically Dean needs to improve. His only tweak to the system seems to be to bring on Traore for Trezeguet and it was obvious we needed fresh legs last night and he once again made one sub. Last night's performance was really poor, there's no getting away from that. We were dominated at home against a side that has just come up from the Championship. Southampton at home will be another game like last night, they're greater than the sum of their parts, they'll press us high up the pitch, and if we play anything like we did last night we'll lose. 

 

It's just one game and I'm not getting carried away, but we need a response now. We could quite feasibly lose the next 2 games and we have to make sure that doesn't happen or this season could quickly become a struggle. 

Edited by VillaFaninLondon
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1 hour ago, MaVilla said:

He is, to take what us effectively a bunch of average players (excluding phillips), and get them playing like that is a credit to bielsa.

Smith saying we had to match their intensity was a mistake tbh, you can't match their intensity, you can only wear them down (or get as fit as them - but we aren't)

As I have said before, I don't like the bielsa circle jerk, but you also can't deny what he has done with Leeds is super impressive.

I don't think there are many coaches out there who on paper could keep that Leeds team up, but he will do that and more getting 100% out of the players he has.

 

I agree with most of that. What we did (badly) was out counter attack it was bloody awful yesterday. We played a lot more direct and that didnt worm because each player was being man marked excellently. 

Leeds are not great defensively and we didnt apply too much pressure on them. Also we made the wrong decisions in the final 3rd. It was like the 1st half leeds nade a huge error with a pass against the back line and i think it was trez he made a complete mess of that opportunity.  We also made so many sloppy passes just like barkley which lead to 2nd goal.

 

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4 minutes ago, TRO said:

I don't want to over react to this and in my opinion, the game against Southampton will say a lot about last nights game.

I thought we had turned the corner in terms of being so open but I am not so sure now, it seems it is still in our DNA. I don't think a bad day at the office is an accurate description, there intensity, urgency and sheer willingness to work, dismantles us.....There will always be moments in a game where a goal can turn it and its clear to me we rely on that more than some teams.....let me explain in boxing terms......A boxer gets a few knock downs early in the fight, but his opponent is way ahead on points scoring body punches, punches to the head and is basically working his man harder......eventually that hard work reaps dividends and the one with the few knock downs tires and his legs get weary and the boxer who has thrown all the punches gains confidence and hits his own counter knock downs.......Moments are great in the game, and they can change games, but we need more energy and intensity to work our opponent with too, not JUST rely on moments

Its hard to criticise a team that has had such a good start as us, but lets be clear here, so have Leeds had a good start too......man for man we was probaly better than them on paper, collectively they gave us a lesson.

I am not so sure its just one of those nights, Biesla carefully planned to cut the head off the snake and it worked.....our midfield was negated, if you give them time and space on the ball, they are great, but suffocate and stifle them and they are lost, with little to fight back with, it was mooted that we had too many creative players on show, it could be a point, because we allowed ourselves to be bullied.....I would have been tempted to bring Elmo on in place of Trez to help Cash, where most of the real damage was coming from.

We need to carefully evaluate that performance and get back to post Lockdown, because that had shades of pre lockdown.

I also thought there was signs of the 23/12/2018 game where another Jack, Jack Clarke run riot and another 3 were dispatched by Leeds......I knew this game would be difficult, but not as emphatic as I think it was.

 

I agree with a lot of that TRO. I certainly think it applies to last night’s game. 
 

However if we leave aside the Liverpool game because that was so much a one off it’s hard to compare it to any other game we are likely to see for a while. Certainly against a team that we’re Champions by so many points.
 

The other three games I thought we worked hard in throughout. Obviously that came with goals against Fulham. In the other two particularly against Leicester both sides more or less cancelled each other out. Those types of games are often decided by a moment and it’s no bad thing that we now have more than one player who can find us a match winning moment. 
 

It goes without saying that nothing is won without hard work. We were out worked last night and that is one of Leeds great strengths. However we still had some moments and if one of those chances went in at 0-0 things may have been different. 
 

To add to the hard work argument, I think it also has to be intelligent work. They worked hard on the flanks. Working hard going forwards is often easier than working hard to chase defensively. Matt Cash did well and worked very hard, but with a bit more thought and work from other players making covering runs his work could have been more effective. I’d agree with you that possibly Elmo for Trez could have worked well in that respect. 
 

Hopefully last night was a blip not the start of a trend. We’ll see. 

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Victims of our own success I think. We’ve got good footballers but went into the game (perhaps inevitably) with an over confidence - we deserved to lose but had Jacks chance gone in I could see us going from strength to strength - obvs that didn’t happen

We’re very much a work in progress still, with few options outside the first XI and we should approach the season with expectations of a mid-table position (I’m predicting 12th)

Our front six are comfortable and skilled going forward but not so able and willing to defend - we are still a few players away from the ideal squad but Rome wasn’t built in a day

Watkins needs to bounce back quickly, before a couple of quiet games become a slump and Smith needs to unsettle the First XI a little before they get complacent - maybe Hourihane(!) or Nakamba get a game?

Traore is a worry for me at the moment - looks a luxury player which we can’t afford - very very early days so hopefully I’m completely wrong

 

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There were a few moments yesterday when handily placed but our players didn't have a pop. Compare that with the Leeds guys and they did. What this does is create a little doubt for the next time you're in a similar position is he going to pass shoot or dribble. We need to shoot more. I want Dean Smith to drill this into the players. Our 10/11 shots become 17/18 easily. Barkley had one and I thought he was going to rifle it in.

I think our strongest 11 is good enough to win 15 games this season. But I also believe by resting 1/2 at a time it will be beneficial for our season.

Edited by Sulberto21
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1 hour ago, Delphinho123 said:

Love Smith, but should have changed it last night at half time. We were being thoroughly outplayed. 

No way. Maybe the events subsequent to their goal are clouding your judgement. Up until then it was reasonably even, although warning signs were there. Cannot blame Smith for having faith in the players that had just won 4 on the bounce to impose our game on them. We panicked after going a goal down, they grew in confidence. Smith seen this and commented so in post match. I’m sure he’ll address it. 
 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Edited by GENTLEMAN
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13 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

I agree with a lot of that TRO. I certainly think it applies to last night’s game. 
 

However if we leave aside the Liverpool game because that was so much a one off it’s hard to compare it to any other game we are likely to see for a while. Certainly against a team that we’re Champions by so many points.
 

The other three games I thought we worked hard in throughout. Obviously that came with goals against Fulham. In the other two particularly against Leicester both sides more or less cancelled each other out. Those types of games are often decided by a moment and it’s no bad thing that we now have more than one player who can find us a match winning moment. 
 

It goes without saying that nothing is won without hard work. We were out worked last night and that is one of Leeds great strengths. However we still had some moments and if one of those chances went in at 0-0 things may have been different. 
 

To add to the hard work argument, I think it also has to be intelligent work. They worked hard on the flanks. Working hard going forwards is often easier than working hard to chase defensively. Matt Cash did well and worked very hard, but with a bit more thought and work from other players making covering runs his work could have been more effective. I’d agree with you that possibly Elmo for Trez could have worked well in that respect. 
 

Hopefully last night was a blip not the start of a trend. We’ll see. 

Dave, I am taking nothing away from the earlier games.....we did work hard in them and I was proud of that workrate, thus my tendency to think we have turned the corner.....and yes you are right, it has to be intelligent work, but taking a ball off an opponent is quite specific and requires a bit of a ratting mentality.....it was absent from our game last night, sure McGinn made a few attempts but was outnumbered.

The Liverpool game, I think they showed us minimal respect and we duly responded.....imo much like last night, I thought we turned up expecting to win 4-1 and they did to us what we did to Liverpool.

Its all about the reaction, now......How much do we want to bounce back, that is the crucial question.

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7 hours ago, VillaCas said:

Victims of our own success I think. We’ve got good footballers but went into the game (perhaps inevitably) with an over confidence - we deserved to lose but had Jacks chance gone in I could see us going from strength to strength - obvs that didn’t happen

We’re very much a work in progress still, with few options outside the first XI and we should approach the season with expectations of a mid-table position (I’m predicting 12th)

Our front six are comfortable and skilled going forward but not so able and willing to defend - we are still a few players away from the ideal squad but Rome wasn’t built in a day

Watkins needs to bounce back quickly, before a couple of quiet games become a slump and Smith needs to unsettle the First XI a little before they get complacent - maybe Hourihane(!) or Nakamba get a game?

Traore is a worry for me at the moment - looks a luxury player which we can’t afford - very very early days so hopefully I’m completely wrong

 

I think you make some good points.

For me the next move is to add some presence/muscle in the middle, like Klich or Berge or Partey,but not just muscle a brain in the middle too.... but moreover for the squad, not just the first team.

I thought we allowed the centre backs to be got at too easily last night.

 

Edited by TRO
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