Dean Smith

[DCJonah]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

I think you've slightly misunderstood my point. I wasn't talking about the squad, I was talking about our performances in general.

Your posts are sounding like whenever we perform badly it's because our squad isn't good enough. And when we're performing well it's thanks to Smith. It reads as if Smith has got the absolute best out of the squad all season when that clearly is not true.

 

The truth is Smith has been great at times and he's been shit at times. The performance of the team falls at his feet and at times it's been very poor. Luckily it's also been very good at times and it will hopefully be enough to see us over the line

I can see why they might be taken that way. Its not as simple as that though. 

I find it hard to blame smith for poor spells in the season because IMO the squad isn't good enough. When wesley goes 12 games without a goal and no shots for 4 games, is that smiths fault? When inexperienced players are struggling early on, again I find it hard to blame him. We built a brand new team full of players unproven at this level. It was never going to click straight away. So criticising smith for not getting the best out of them from day one makes little sense to me. 

As I said earlier, there is nothing about our squad to make surviving something we could demand. So when we get decent spells out of the team, I think he deserves credit. Some see it as he should have done it more often, but I see little evidence to suggest that was really a realistic demand. When you see how inconsistent arsenal are, or how far man city have finished behind Liverpool, expecting this team to be consistently decent is unrealistic IMO. 

I think allowing Smith time has allowed players to start to develop and he gets credit for that with some of them. 

I get the criticism regarding the defence, but then the improvement in that is a major reason why I believe we stick with him regardless.

Its down to expectations. I always thought 17th was going to be successful. Nothing I saw in the window, in early games or in january makes me think expecting more was a fair expectation. But others will disagree. Some ridiculously so, when they claim Smith was an utter disaster because they made up some mental idea of finishing mid table.n 

[Stevo985]

2 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

I can see why they might be taken that way. Its not as simple as that though. 

I find it hard to blame smith for poor spells in the season because IMO the squad isn't good enough. When wesley goes 12 games without a goal and no shots for 4 games, is that smiths fault?

Yes. Absolutely it is. Not solely his fault of course, but it's absolutely down to him at least in part.

2 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

When inexperienced players are struggling early on, again I find it hard to blame him. We built a brand new team full of players unproven at this level. It was never going to click straight away. So criticising smith for not getting the best out of them from day one makes little sense to me. 

Nobody is doing that. People are saying there have been times in the season where he has been getting far less out of them than they're capable of. He has to take some blame for that.

3 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

As I said earlier, there is nothing about our squad to make surviving something we could demand. So when we get decent spells out of the team, I think he deserves credit. Some see it as he should have done it more often, but I see little evidence to suggest that was really a realistic demand. When you see how inconsistent arsenal are, or how far man city have finished behind Liverpool, expecting this team to be consistently decent is unrealistic IMO. 

 

Again this reads as he has got the absolute best out of the squad for the whole season. Which isn't true, imo. if you think that's the case then fair enough.

4 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

I think allowing Smith time has allowed players to start to develop and he gets credit for that with some of them. 

I get the criticism regarding the defence, but then the improvement in that is a major reason why I believe we stick with him regardless.

I agree

4 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

 

Its down to expectations. I always thought 17th was going to be successful. Nothing I saw in the window, in early games or in january makes me think expecting more was a fair expectation. But others will disagree. Some ridiculously so, when they claim Smith was an utter disaster because they made up some mental idea of finishing mid table.n 

It's not about expectations. I agree with you that 17th is the target and if we get it then he's done a good job.

The part I don't agree with is everything bad is down to the poor squad. Which again is how your posts are still coming across.
You sound like you're saying the performance of the squad is just down to how good the players are. if that's the case then why do we even have a manager?

There's plenty a manager can control and do to dictate how his squad performs. Smith has done that well sometimes. And badly at others. 

 

I didn't think it was a controversial point to be honest. I just can't agree with the train of thought that Smith has got the best out of his squad at all times and any bad performances is down to the poor squad. As much as you're denying that's the case, all that is saying is good things = Smith, bad things = not Smith

 

He's either responsible for performances or he's not. And if he is then he takes the bad with the good. And again I'm pleased that there's now a good chance that the good outweighs the bad enough to keep us up. Your view appears to be "I rate Smith and therefore anything bad can't be his fault". Which is the black and white stuff I hate that I've previously referred to.

[WakefieldVillan]

A Leeds fan I work with has just said that first thing we need to do regardless of whether we stay up is to get rid of Smith. I was like, oh right, really, what makes you think that? He said well, he’s crap ain’t he, he’s not up to it. I said but why do you think that? His response “well he got lucky last year, shouldn’t have gone up, defense is crap blah blah”. I pointed out our 10-game winning streak and that he achieved promotion quicker than Bielsa (who is a Leeds God), “ah but he’s crap.....”

I am not sure if that is a "Leeds" thing more than anything else as another one of their fans said this morning on a text “I don’t mind Villa (re-staying up) but hope they sack Smith. Which I found quite bizarre.

Anyway, it is waffle like that which makes me want him to succeed even more. At least back up the argument with something productive, with some knowledge of why he (in their opinion) is not very good. Stinks of bitterness to be honest.

As for Smith, I would keep him regardless of which division were plying our trade – Unless were a Premier League club and we can get a real coup like Poch! I do think that this is probably one thing against Smith, is not being the "big name manager" that can attract star players.

But just like our squad, he is learning all the time and yes it hasn’t all been good, far from it, but I think tactically he isn’t bad at all, he selects teams that I generally agree with, the team spirit seems to be just fine and if we finish one place above the drop zone (with the cup final day out to boot) then he has earned another season to have a shot at IMO.

[DCJonah]

48 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Yes. Absolutely it is. Not solely his fault of course, but it's absolutely down to him at least in part.

Nobody is doing that. People are saying there have been times in the season where he has been getting far less out of them than they're capable of. He has to take some blame for that.

Again this reads as he has got the absolute best out of the squad for the whole season. Which isn't true, imo. if you think that's the case then fair enough.

I agree

It's not about expectations. I agree with you that 17th is the target and if we get it then he's done a good job.

The part I don't agree with is everything bad is down to the poor squad. Which again is how your posts are still coming across.
You sound like you're saying the performance of the squad is just down to how good the players are. if that's the case then why do we even have a manager?

There's plenty a manager can control and do to dictate how his squad performs. Smith has done that well sometimes. And badly at others. 

 

I didn't think it was a controversial point to be honest. I just can't agree with the train of thought that Smith has got the best out of his squad at all times and any bad performances is down to the poor squad. As much as you're denying that's the case, all that is saying is good things = Smith, bad things = not Smith

 

He's either responsible for performances or he's not. And if he is then he takes the bad with the good. And again I'm pleased that there's now a good chance that the good outweighs the bad enough to keep us up. Your view appears to be "I rate Smith and therefore anything bad can't be his fault". Which is the black and white stuff I hate that I've previously referred to.

How realistic an expectation is this though? How many managers this season can that be said about? 1? 2 maybe? 

Yet we have that expectation of a new manager to the league with a brand new squad. 

I think its more about my expectations than bad = squad, good = smith. 

A lot of the good is what I'd expect from the manager and most of the bad, I don't personally feel is a realistic expectation to demand better from him, for lots of valid reasons. 

In its most simplistic form, yes the manager ultimately will take responsibility but there have been so many factors this year, I feel they play a big part in my judgement of him. 

17th imo was always going to be an achievement. So many of the negative things we've seen are quite common for a team aiming to survive. So to demand better from smith means I'm demanding the team be better than I realistically think they can be. 

Others disagree and thats fine. 

The only responses I've taken issue with are the ridiculous over the top ones from 3 or 4 people on here.

 

 

Edited July 22, 2020 by DCJonah

[Stevo985]

7 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

How realistic an expectation is this though? How many managers this season can that be said about? 1? 2 maybe? 

Yet we have that expectation of a new manager to the league with a brand new squad. 

 

It's not a realistic expectation. I never said it was. That's literally the exact reason I'm taking issue with your posts making it sound like he has. 

8 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

A lot of the good is what I'd expect from the manager and most of the bad, I don't personally feel is a realistic expectation to demand better from him, for lots of valid reasons. 

In its most simplistic form, yes the manager ultimately will take responsibility but there have been so many factors this year, I feel they play a big part in my judgement of him. 

17th imo was always going to be an achievement. So many of the negative things we've seen are quite common for a team aiming to survive. So to demand better from smith means I'm demanding the team be better than I realistically think they can be. 

Others disagree and thats fine. 

The only responses I've taken issue with are the ridiculous over the top ones from 3 or 4 people on here.

 

 

The only issue I have is that your posts seem to always dismiss any negatives, or if you acknowledge them you blame the squad. It reads like you think Smith has done absolutely no wrong. Which he obviously has.

And again this is coming from someone who is happy with him and wouldn't sack him

[Keyblade]

A team aiming for 17th will have their highs and lows, typically more lows than highs, it just comes with the territory. How much of those highs and lows are attributable to managerial nous for lack of better word is hard to quantify. I still think this squad isn't filled with a crazy amount of quality. As admirable as he's performed of late, we're still starting Conor Hourihane regularly for example. Same goes for Trezeguet as another example. Despite their limitations, we're still seeing big performances from them which suggests they're giving everything for the manager. The fabled "getting players to perform above their ability" you see people pine about other managers. I think the real litmus test for Dean is next season if we stay up and invest heavily again.

[sharkyvilla]

1 hour ago, WakefieldVillan said:

A Leeds fan I work with has just said that first thing we need to do regardless of whether we stay up is to get rid of Smith. I was like, oh right, really, what makes you think that? He said well, he’s crap ain’t he, he’s not up to it. I said but why do you think that? His response “well he got lucky last year, shouldn’t have gone up, defense is crap blah blah”. I pointed out our 10-game winning streak and that he achieved promotion quicker than Bielsa (who is a Leeds God), “ah but he’s crap.....”

I am not sure if that is a "Leeds" thing more than anything else as another one of their fans said this morning on a text “I don’t mind Villa (re-staying up) but hope they sack Smith. Which I found quite bizarre.

Anyway, it is waffle like that which makes me want him to succeed even more. At least back up the argument with something productive, with some knowledge of why he (in their opinion) is not very good. Stinks of bitterness to be honest.

As for Smith, I would keep him regardless of which division were plying our trade – Unless were a Premier League club and we can get a real coup like Poch! I do think that this is probably one thing against Smith, is not being the "big name manager" that can attract star players.

But just like our squad, he is learning all the time and yes it hasn’t all been good, far from it, but I think tactically he isn’t bad at all, he selects teams that I generally agree with, the team spirit seems to be just fine and if we finish one place above the drop zone (with the cup final day out to boot) then he has earned another season to have a shot at IMO.

To be fair it's not just Leeds fans, there are dozens of pages of posts like that on this very forum.  It's a bit sad really but hopefully we get a positive outcome on Sunday and we can then give Dean a stronger squad of players to work with.

[sheepyvillian]

How could any true Villan not want this man to be a success at this great club of ours? 

[Hitzlsperger_12]

Yes, we've been a bit naïve in defending, however we have played some really good football this season and pushed some of the bigger teams all the way. We should be well clear of relegation had a few results went our way. I honestly believe when we stay up, we'll be a far better team next year for it. A few key acquisitions and those 21 points dropped from winning positions will be greatly improved on.

We've scored more than a lot of the teams further up the table, Sheff Utd for example. We are now defending better, so I can only see us improving next year.

We got promoted a year ahead of schedule, Smith is still learning as a Premier League manager and he will only get better imo.

[MikeAVFC]

For the first time all season, I actually saw a cohesive, sensible game plan from Smith. Credit where it's due. Not convinced by any stretch that he's the man to take us forward but credit where its due for last night. Got it spot on. Same Sunday please

[Woody1000]

Nobody finishes comfortably in 17th place do they?

[Sulberto21]

3 minutes ago, MikeAVFC said:

For the first time all season, I actually saw a cohesive, sensible game plan from Smith. Credit where it's due. Not convinced by any stretch that he's the man to take us forward but credit where its due for last night. Got it spot on. Same Sunday please

I'd argue that in most games this season there's been a plan. However when the opposition adjust or tweaked in game (without subs) Smith was left perplexed and waited and waited and waited and waited to do anything about it. Yesterday he tweaked formation and positioning of players when the situation required and amazingly we looked good in both defence and attack. 

[DCJonah]

45 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

A team aiming for 17th will have their highs and lows, typically more lows than highs, it just comes with the territory. How much of those highs and lows are attributable to managerial nous for lack of better word is hard to quantify. I still think this squad isn't filled with a crazy amount of quality. As admirable as he's performed of late, we're still starting Conor Hourihane regularly for example. Same goes for Trezeguet as another example. Despite their limitations, we're still seeing big performances from them which suggests they're giving everything for the manager. The fabled "getting players to perform above their ability" you see people pine about other managers. I think the real litmus test for Dean is next season if we stay up and invest heavily again.

This is the point I'm trying to make. 

Many straight away just point the finger at the manager but its really not that simple.

36 pts usually gets you 17th in the league. We are 17th on 34 pts with one game to go. How much better could anyone realistically have demanded? 

[DCJonah]

3 minutes ago, Woody1000 said:

Nobody finishes comfortably in 17th place do they?

Exactly. 

[Xela]

I'd have been happy with 17th this season. We're currently 17th

Job nearly done. 

[Zatman]

2 hours ago, WakefieldVillan said:

A Leeds fan I work with has just said that first thing we need to do regardless of whether we stay up is to get rid of Smith. I was like, oh right, really, what makes you think that? He said well, he’s crap ain’t he, he’s not up to it. I said but why do you think that? His response “well he got lucky last year, shouldn’t have gone up, defense is crap blah blah”. I pointed out our 10-game winning streak and that he achieved promotion quicker than Bielsa (who is a Leeds God), “ah but he’s crap.....”

I am not sure if that is a "Leeds" thing more than anything else as another one of their fans said this morning on a text “I don’t mind Villa (re-staying up) but hope they sack Smith. Which I found quite bizarre.

Did he complete Leeds bingo by saying that Grealish was an overrated diver and Bamford was scarred for life

[Xela]

1 minute ago, Zatman said:

Did he complete Leeds bingo by saying that Grealish was an overrated diver and Bamford was scarred for life

Also add "back where we belong"

small heath have been in the top flight longer than Leeds

[Keyblade]

14 minutes ago, Xela said:

Also add "back where we belong"

small heath have been in the top flight longer than Leeds

It only took them the amount of time it takes someone to be born and go through secondary school to do it too.

[Woody1000]

1 hour ago, sheepyvillian said:

How could any true Villan not want this man to be a success at this great club of ours? 

I would challenge this. 
 

The fact that he is a villa fan shouldn’t give him any special privileges, however the issue I have is when fans won’t acknowledge improvement because they still have to be ‘right’

To question fans in this way is just “better fan than you” for me. I want what is best for the club.

 

[Stevo985]

35 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

This is the point I'm trying to make. 

Many straight away just point the finger at the manager but its really not that simple.

36 pts usually gets you 17th in the league. We are 17th on 34 pts with one game to go. How much better could anyone realistically have demanded? 

All due respect you're making it badly, because it's the exact same point I'm trying to make and I agree with @Keyblade entirely.

Your posts come across as someone who thinks the manager has been perfect and any shortcomings are from the squad.

All I was trying to say was exactly what Keyblade has said. We have had good periods and bad periods, and Smith is to blame for the bad as well as the good.

 

I think we basically agree.