Stevo985 Posted July 22, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted July 22, 2020 4 minutes ago, DCJonah said: I'm not pretending its been good. Its going in circles but I guess it comes down to expectations and peoples view of the squad as to how much you put on Smith. For me, 17th was the aim and this squad is incredibly weak, even more so with injuries. When Engels is letting the ball go under his leg, thats not Smith being shit, likewise with Trezeguet smashing a ball home thats not Smith being brilliant. So many fine lines all season. Well exactly. But the team as a unit playing far better over the past 3 or 4 games compared to the three or 4 games before that is Smith. The team going on a run of no wins in 13 games or whatever it was is Smith. It's not a case of Smith has performed at 6/10 all season therefore he is good. Or he has been 3/10 all season therefore he is bad. It's at times he's been great, at times he's been brilliant, at times he's been **** shite, at times he's been ok. Some people on VT seem to just decide a manager is shit or good and can't accept that sometimes it's bit of both 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhan_Zhuang Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 Fair play Dean Smith although we aren't out of the woods yet... He's made us stronger at the back, better from set-pieces and we went and attacked Arsenal second-half last night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 If we go down - it will be by the narrowest of margins - weve gone down fighting - so I reckon now, even if we do go down I think he will keep his job. Still a big task on Sunday - a slack performance from West Ham and Moyes could well be out on his ear - Don't think he was a particularly popular appointment in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted July 22, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted July 22, 2020 called for his head a couple of weeks ago...but fair play, he's really getting a tune out of this lot now. BUT - even if we stay up, there needs to be an inquisition about this season. recruitment, tactics, team selection, subs...everything. it would be because there are 3 teams more hopeless than us that we have stayed up and there's no getting away from that. next season will be harder. west ham will not be as crap, leeds won't be going down without a fight. hopefully jack leaving forces dean's hand in terms of tactics and to be fair to him, we have been less about "give the ball to jack at every opportunity" last 3 games and look at the performances as a result. we need to replace the whole front line in the summer, and hopefully they will be more like 'smith' signings rather than the dross we have now. he'll be under the microscope 1st half of next season i reckon. i'm sure that at some point the board regretted not sacking smith, and by that point probably was too late, but they'll probably be glad they didn't now. covid potentially saved his job anyway by all accounts as he was in trouble before that put a stop to everything. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 1 minute ago, Stevo985 said: Well exactly. But the team as a unit playing far better over the past 3 or 4 games compared to the three or 4 games before that is Smith. The team going on a run of no wins in 13 games or whatever it was is Smith. It's not a case of Smith has performed at 6/10 all season therefore he is good. Or he has been 3/10 all season therefore he is bad. It's at times he's been great, at times he's been brilliant, at times he's been **** shite, at times he's been ok. Some people on VT seem to just decide a manager is shit or good and can't accept that sometimes it's bit of both The only thing I will say is that end of season form is a poor guide - weird results come from all over. Arsenal didn't look terribly motivated last night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 Would of took 17th even before a ball had been kicked back in August. Thats not changed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody1000 Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 That’s it Dean, keep shutting up fans like me!! UTV!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Zhan_Zhuang said: Fair play Dean Smith although we aren't out of the woods yet... He's made us stronger at the back, better from set-pieces and we went and attacked Arsenal second-half last night. I think we still struggle on set pieces. Or do you mean offensive set pieces? But other than that we are much improved defensively. Edited July 22, 2020 by villalad21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 45 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Well exactly. But the team as a unit playing far better over the past 3 or 4 games compared to the three or 4 games before that is Smith. The team going on a run of no wins in 13 games or whatever it was is Smith. It's not a case of Smith has performed at 6/10 all season therefore he is good. Or he has been 3/10 all season therefore he is bad. It's at times he's been great, at times he's been brilliant, at times he's been **** shite, at times he's been ok. Some people on VT seem to just decide a manager is shit or good and can't accept that sometimes it's bit of both But then I think that's a bit of black and white thinking. For me there are just so many unknown variables and factors this season. For example, in the championship, we knew our players were good enough, it wasn't a question. So in that scenario, when things are going really bad or really good, a lot can be put on the manager. Now, there are no real known quantities, apart from that Jack is easily good enough for this league. So when we have a really bad spell, how much of that is on the manager or on the players? For me, I think this squad is incredibly weak. I dont think many of our players start regular games for other teams at this level. Injuries especially meant we were playing much weaker players. I don't think it was mainly down to tactics and in game subs when things were bad. As of right now, it looks like unproven premier league players starting to get to speed with things. Luiz, konza and trezeguet in particular. I don't think its down to earlier in the season, smith was using them wrong and now he isn't. I think its the end result of coaching, learning and confidence. There's nothing about our squad that entitles us to survive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 22, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted July 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, DCJonah said: But then I think that's a bit of black and white thinking. For me there are just so many unknown variables and factors this season. For example, in the championship, we knew our players were good enough, it wasn't a question. So in that scenario, when things are going really bad or really good, a lot can be put on the manager. Now, there are no real known quantities, apart from that Jack is easily good enough for this league. So when we have a really bad spell, how much of that is on the manager or on the players? For me, I think this squad is incredibly weak. I dont think many of our players start regular games for other teams at this level. Injuries especially meant we were playing much weaker players. I don't think it was mainly down to tactics and in game subs when things were bad. As of right now, it looks like unproven premier league players starting to get to speed with things. Luiz, konza and trezeguet in particular. I don't think its down to earlier in the season, smith was using them wrong and now he isn't. I think its the end result of coaching, learning and confidence. There's nothing about our squad that entitles us to survive. To me this just comes across as wriggling out of any criticism for the manager. Your argument is always that our squad is not good enough and any poor performances are down to them and not the manager. It sounds like if things go well = Smith's fault If things go bad = squad's fault. In reality the good and bad are, as you say, a mixture of lots of factors. And Smith is implicit in both the good and the bad. That's as un-black and white as you can get 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 5 hours ago, Keyblade said: It was there all along, he purposely left it until the final 4 games to show it just to raise our blood pressures. I think someone has failed to notice the jest in your post. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 6 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: To me this just comes across as wriggling out of any criticism for the manager. Your argument is always that our squad is not good enough and any poor performances are down to them and not the manager. It sounds like if things go well = Smith's fault If things go bad = squad's fault. In reality the good and bad are, as you say, a mixture of lots of factors. And Smith is implicit in both the good and the bad. That's as un-black and white as you can get Not at all. I'm not saying improvements in players are all down to smith. I think luiz and konza in particular would progress at this level under anyone. I think we do have a poor squad and a few of them look more settled. I think that's time and experience more than any brilliant coaching from Smith. Mcginn coming back, has been a factor, this isn't credit to smith. I honestly don't believe he deserves a lot of criticism. I can't think of many games where its blatantly obvious that his decisions cost us. I think there's been more clear examples from mistakes by engels, el ghazi and others IMO. I think I've been pretty consistent in my view that 17th is the prize. Even if we miss out it will come down to GD, with everything that's gone on and all factors considered I just can't see a lot of reasons to criticise him over the quality of the squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted July 22, 2020 Visiting Supporter Share Posted July 22, 2020 Watched Smith’s post match interview on Facebook this morning. Confirmed that he had gone to watch Tres before he was purchased. Puts to bed then the argument that Smith had no input on transfers. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robtaylor200 Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Stevo985 said: I hate how black and white VT is. You don't have to be so pro or anti smith that you can't credit him or criticise him in fear of weakening your position. At times he's been shit, at times he's been brilliant. At the moment it's the latter so let's hope he carries that into Sunday's game Agree about it being black and white. I have moaned about him all season. tactical play, subs too late etc. I will cheer for him when he does these things right. On the whole I have more moans than cheers and one swallow doesn't make a summer (No need to quote the last sentence lads :} ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 21 minutes ago, striker said: Watched Smith’s post match interview on Facebook this morning. Confirmed that he had gone to watch Tres before he was purchased. Puts to bed then the argument that Smith had no input on transfers. No one really says otherwise. But do you really think he goes out and finds these players? Or do you think its more likely that the recruitment team finds players and Smith will then go and see them? Of course he's involved. But as said earlier, if the choice is trezeguet or some other unknown £8 million winger who has never played in the prem, its not like Smith is turning down quality players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted July 22, 2020 Author Share Posted July 22, 2020 2 hours ago, Eastie said: Depends who else may be gettable to replace him , if there is a much better manager available who would be interested then there’s no room for sentiment - if not then fair enough give him another chance but Suso must go and we need a huge improvement in recruitment . The chance is there to spend big and get quality not quantity this time , players I’d hope we’d be looking are Tammy , benrahma , cantwell, tuanzebe . Tammy would be my number one choice if we were to stay up. But he could probanly go to a bigger club than us. If Bournemouth go down i think we should go for Callum Wilson. He is a top striker. Also another player i like is jamal lewis. He could be a very good left back for us 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 22, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted July 22, 2020 1 hour ago, DCJonah said: Not at all. I'm not saying improvements in players are all down to smith. I think luiz and konza in particular would progress at this level under anyone. I think we do have a poor squad and a few of them look more settled. I think that's time and experience more than any brilliant coaching from Smith. Mcginn coming back, has been a factor, this isn't credit to smith. I honestly don't believe he deserves a lot of criticism. I can't think of many games where its blatantly obvious that his decisions cost us. I think there's been more clear examples from mistakes by engels, el ghazi and others IMO. I think I've been pretty consistent in my view that 17th is the prize. Even if we miss out it will come down to GD, with everything that's gone on and all factors considered I just can't see a lot of reasons to criticise him over the quality of the squad. I think you've slightly misunderstood my point. I wasn't talking about the squad, I was talking about our performances in general. Your posts are sounding like whenever we perform badly it's because our squad isn't good enough. And when we're performing well it's thanks to Smith. It reads as if Smith has got the absolute best out of the squad all season when that clearly is not true. The truth is Smith has been great at times and he's been shit at times. The performance of the team falls at his feet and at times it's been very poor. Luckily it's also been very good at times and it will hopefully be enough to see us over the line 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 4 hours ago, Demitri_C said: Look if smith keeps us up (and everyone knows i have been a harsh critic of his) he should under no circumstances be sacked. I agree 100% He should be moved upstairs to a more senior role in identifying new players etc. and make way for a new top level manager/coach to come in and work with the platform Smith has built and build on that. Giving the new manager a solid amount of cash and resources and working on building a team to kick us on some. But hey.. that's just my opinion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 38 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said: I agree 100% He should be moved upstairs to a more senior role in identifying new players etc. and make way for a new top level manager/coach to come in and work with the platform Smith has built and build on that. Giving the new manager a solid amount of cash and resources and working on building a team to kick us on some. But hey.. that's just my opinion. Why would smith retire from management? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post VillaCas Posted July 22, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 22, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, striker said: Watched Smith’s post match interview on Facebook this morning. Confirmed that he had gone to watch Tres before he was purchased. Puts to bed then the argument that Smith had no input on transfers. I’m not sure anyone claimed he has “no” input on transfers, but how much is deemed meaningful? We signed 15 players and for most of those we will have had 4 or 5 names in the frame for each position. So 40 or 50 players to keep track of - that job is done by the Scouting team under the direction of DOfF In this instance Smith saw Trez play in ACON against RSA. He may have had a great game, He may have looked decent against lesser players. He may have been highly recommended by the scouting team. We needed players, the alternatives may have been worse, the alternative may have been no-one. If you wish to be harsh on Smith you could claim that he should be able to assess a players ability to perform in the PL from one single game against random opposition - Personally I’m happy to rely on the DofF to take the vast majority of the responsibility for recruitment Additionally, I don’t think that Trez is as much of a disaster as many here - I would hope that he wouldn’t be first choice next season but he is a good squad player, he works hard enough and I’d be ok with him coming on for 20 mins to help close a game out Edited July 22, 2020 by VillaCas 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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