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Dean Smith

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16 hours ago, Tomaszk said:

Wilder's bubble won't burst I agree. He's too good.

The reason is absolutely his adaptability, not the hard work, they work no harder than us. He's drilled his team with a system no one has ever seen and he switches it mid-game if needs be. He's got different players for different matches and opponents, different tactics from set-pieces, different bloody routines and plans from his own goal kicks depending on the opponent.

Hard work will only get you so far and it isn't enough in modern football.

No one is saying or has said hard work on its own is enough in any level of football, its a combination of things....but without it all the other important criteria, like talent is limited.....hard work has always been a major component in any era of football, the modern game is no exception, but by definition, you would expect football to progress, so the game is faster, subsequently less space, less time to think and pass.....so its more critical than ever that hard work is implimented, but lets not forget " Smart Work " which supports hard work....you don't always have to be the village idiot running around for the sake of it....that is not my interpretation anyway.

You only have to look years ago at the great Brazillian teams their guile and sheer technical prowess, masked the supreme fitness and graft they executed...they never stopped working the ball, but some folk missed or dismissed that by the focus of skill

I don't accept in general, we work as hard as Wilders crew, I refute that...but I accept the other stuff you mention.....He has Nous, that crucial ingredient of a good manager.

Edited by TRO
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21 hours ago, Adam2003 said:

I have no dog in this fight TRO but I think the point being made by your counterpart in this debate is that it’s not a good debate for anyone, in that it’s the same two arguments...

”We wasted a ton of money.”

”We did our best to replace an entire squad at a low average cost.”

...repeat for 100000 pages, on a thread about a manager who we know only has 1/3 of the voice on transfers.

Now if the debate shifted to if we should have a different model, or how we could fix it, etc, that might be more interesting.

Not meaning to tell anyone what they can or can’t discuss, just saying why I think some people are out of patience with it but might still want to discuss aspects of the coach’s role or performance on here.

you could be right....but it thought that I did extend the debate to the very point you are making.....I did go on to say in many posts its what we spent it on and who we spent it on....so I thought the debate was nauturally shifting with its own momentum....but hey ho I accept your reasoning.

I am always interested in an alternative view.....but there is a way of putting it forward.

back to line 3 

I hate to sound unsympathetic, but sometimes, doing your best, is oh so noble, but not really good enough for the end result.

I worked in a results driven business and I was a manager in that business, before retiring.....on the odd occasions we would be behind target and some of my staff would say, " well you have had a good go and worked hard this month" and I used to say thanks, i wish you was my boss....They wants results, not excuses, bona fide reasons were accepted once in a while , provided they were backed up by good sound evidence.....but it was my job to deliver results....I knew that and got paid accordingly, there were no hiding places.

Football is not so disimilar.....The game is riddled with failed managers, and they get paid handsomely for success......They have to dig deep to find answers, thats what managers in all results driven businesses have to do.

I welcome your input...but equally, while we can all disagree and sometimes cross wires or context can foster that....most folk on here are able to debate that on here eloquently.....I refer to Blandy in particular, who can disagree with me at times....fine...but he has such an eloquent way of suggesting I'm wrong....thats not me expecting folk to tread on egg shells, far from it.....I can take criticism, provided its meant with sincerity......I think you know what I am saying.

Edited by TRO

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10 hours ago, The Hawk said:

Their foundations were built. 
Ours weren’t. 
We needed to buy a whole new team.
They didn’t.

 

In league one....surely we haven't got to go there to do it.

its not indismissble what you are saying and I have a certain empathy with it.....but not as much as you or others.

The way we are going, our foundations will never be built, because similar mistakes are happening in every window.

Your point is not lost on me....but where we differ is, I don't accept little or no improvement in any of the players after 28 games, sure its acceptable for some to be late showers, but None, is questionable.

" We will need to buy a whole new team" seems to be rolled out over multiple seasons lately....if we keep buying wrong, that will be a continued theme.

crikey, such is the true understanding of this , some are even calling for Louie Barry to be introduced, how desperate can we get, he is a boy learning his trade......He has to storm the under 18's  , like shaw and Little did, to be even considered.

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44 minutes ago, TRO said:

No one is saying or has said hard work on its own is enough in any level of football, its a combination of things....but without it all the other important criteria, like talent is limited.....hard work has always been a major component in any era of football, the modern game is no exception, but by definition, you would expect football to progress, so the game is faster, subsequently less space, less time to think and pass.....so its more critical than ever that hard work is implimented, but lets not forget " Smart Work " which supports hard work....you don't always have to be the village idiot running around for the sake of it....that is not my interpretation anyway.

You only have to look years ago at the great Brazillian teams their guile and sheer technical prowess, masked the supreme fitness and graft they executed...they never stopped working the ball, but some folk missed or dismissed that by the focus of skill

I don't accept in general, we work as hard as Wilders crew, I refute that...but I accept the other stuff you mention.....He has Nous, that crucial ingredient of a good manager.

You make a good point about the work ethic that Wilder demands TRO. I would add another key characteristic that Wilder has and Smith lacks .... Wilder has a tough and 'nasty' persona when he needs to use it and his players are fully aware of this.

Dean appears to be too 'nice' which I believe has been taken advantage of by some of our players this season.  Lack of positional discipline, inconsistent pressing, unwillingness to close down and track players for 90 minutes spring to mind as examples that they don't exactly fear the consequences of under performing.

When our players fail Smith looks disappointed and frustrated. If Sheffield Utd players failed in the same way Wilder would be incandescent with rage. That in itself is a real motivation for his players, and our players don't appear to have this to anywhere near the same extent.

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4 hours ago, kurtsimonw said:

Winning football. 

If its much harder to play an attacking style, with lots of new players, then maybe we shouldn't be doing that? 

It's a results business. I'd much rather take a few years of defensive football to stabalise, and try and build from there. 

couldn't possibly agree with you more.....and thats where the differences of opinion on here come from.

we are trying to achieve something, that the players can't do.

Edited by TRO

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41 minutes ago, villabromsgrove said:

You make a good point about the work ethic that Wilder demands TRO. I would add another key characteristic that Wilder has and Smith lacks .... Wilder has a tough and 'nasty' persona when he needs to use it and his players are fully aware of this.

Dean appears to be too 'nice' which I believe has been taken advantage of by some of our players this season.  Lack of positional discipline, inconsistent pressing, unwillingness to close down and track players for 90 minutes spring to mind as examples that they don't exactly fear the consequences of under performing.

When our players fail Smith looks disappointed and frustrated. If Sheffield Utd players failed in the same way Wilder would be incandescent with rage. That in itself is a real motivation for his players, and our players don't appear to have this to anywhere near the same extent.

There again I have to agree with all of that.

There has to be an element of " Fear" all the good managers possess it.

Affable men are great friends, but in tough jobs, they get hurt...I remember saying to one of my top bosses once trying to be friendly, "I'll bet you get some headaches in your day to day" He scowled back " I don't get headaches, I give them"

I thought what a great line.....I actually got on well with him, because I performed well in my job......but he wasn't having any empathy or sympathy, they see that as weakness.....and these guys don't court weakness.

I see exactly what you see and how you've described it.

During my time, I have seen many Villa managers come and go.....and what you describe is paramount.

Dr Jo Venglos had all the technical skills in the world, way before his time.....but he didn't have the steel, the single minded determination, and the uncompromising nature of Saunders, not to mention the cummunicative industry banter......some disbelievers, will say that was then different times, No, its now too......good principles are the benchmark in any era as they say " old habits die hard"

Edited by TRO

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3 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

If this is about all managers, in every walk of life (and I presume it is based on you mentioning your own personal experiences) then from my experience in the workplace, both as a manager and employee, it's an extremely outdated way of thinking. 

Yep, the world has moved on from fear driven employees.  You empower your staff nowadays.

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24 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

Yep, the world has moved on from fear driven employees.  You empower your staff nowadays.

Which is partly why the world is so full of snowflakes and special petals.

Edited by MaVilla
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1 hour ago, lapal_fan said:

Yep, the world has moved on from fear driven employees.  You empower your staff nowadays.

I am all for empowering staff, but folk have varying personalities, one does not fit all....and some will take liberties ,unchecked.

but i still believe an element of fear has to be there.....that is not the same as bullying......its respect.

managers don't need to be liked.....they need to be respected.

but one point interests me.?....why has the world always moved on from everything you disagree with?

The world harbours many ways of doing lots of things.

Edited by TRO
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11 hours ago, kurtsimonw said:

Winning football. 

If its much harder to play an attacking style, with lots of new players, then maybe we shouldn't be doing that? 

It's a results business. I'd much rather take a few years of defensive football to stabalise, and try and build from there. 

Winning football this first season back would have been great.

I wouldn't say it's "much harder" to play attacking football necessarily, it's the organisation and implementing ideas that's hard when you've got 12 new players because you didn't have a squad getting promoted through the play-offs. There's no guarantee we'd have better results if we tried to play defensive football, it would likely be just as much of a mess as the players and the manager aren't good enough.

We've been worse in the last 6 games than we were in the first 6 games. It's incorrect.

Well organised defensive sides like Burnley, Palace, Sheff Utd are very good at what they do, it takes skill, it's not just putting 11 men behind the ball.

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2 hours ago, Tomaszk said:

Winning football this first season back would have been great.

I wouldn't say it's "much harder" to play attacking football necessarily, it's the organisation and implementing ideas that's hard when you've got 12 new players because you didn't have a squad getting promoted through the play-offs. There's no guarantee we'd have better results if we tried to play defensive football, it would likely be just as much of a mess as the players and the manager aren't good enough.

We've been worse in the last 6 games than we were in the first 6 games. It's incorrect.

Well organised defensive sides like Burnley, Palace, Sheff Utd are very good at what they do, it takes skill, it's not just putting 11 men behind the ball.

A lot of it is ifs and buts. I agree there's no guarantee of anything.

I don't necessarily feel we need to be more, defensive, but there's no need to be as open as we are. In transition, we look as bad as we did in our relegation season. Anytime we lose the ball, I fear we will concede.

I genuinely do believe that the skill gap between the squads below Everton is really minimal, though. I think this idea that we're somehow inferior to every other squad and that the fact we're even in touching distance is some sort of miracle is just not right. In terms of talent, I think West Ham maybe have a slight edge over everyone, but again I think it's minimal and they're struggling because Pellegrini is just a really bad coach IMO and put them in a terrible situation. That's the thing down the bottom for me, the coaching is even more key than it is at the top end. Pellegrini again being a good example, in that he won the title simply because he had by far and away the best squad. But down the bottom where things are tighter, that's where coaching is even more important and that's where we lack. Whether it be the system, the decision making, the timing of changes. It's just been really bad for me.

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On 20/03/2020 at 15:52, StefanAVFC said:

If this is about all managers, in every walk of life (and I presume it is based on you mentioning your own personal experiences) then from my experience in the workplace, both as a manager and employee, it's an extremely outdated way of thinking. 

Human nature is the same now as it was when 'man' crawled on all fours. Some people will always be as helpful and willing to please as they can. Some are only interested in themselves and couldn't give a toss about anybody else. The first group just need asking to do something. The second group need 'instructing.'

See today's 'panic buying' for example.

ATB.

VLD.

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On 20/03/2020 at 22:46, Tomaszk said:

Winning football this first season back would have been great.

I wouldn't say it's "much harder" to play attacking football necessarily, it's the organisation and implementing ideas that's hard when you've got 12 new players because you didn't have a squad getting promoted through the play-offs. There's no guarantee we'd have better results if we tried to play defensive football, it would likely be just as much of a mess as the players and the manager aren't good enough.

We've been worse in the last 6 games than we were in the first 6 games. It's incorrect.

Well organised defensive sides like Burnley, Palace, Sheff Utd are very good at what they do, it takes skill, it's not just putting 11 men behind the ball.

Its why some of us like me, think we could have bought different players to suit that style.....but you are right, its not all brawn, its organisation and application and the players have to be naturally geared to it. most of the top teams have at least one ,maybe 2 physically adept players in the CDM roles.

I am genuinely, unsure that the manager carte blanche, is not good enough, I think for the first season in, he has chosen the wrong path, maybe one that he is comfortable with, but the wrong one nevertheless......subsequently, they have bought players to fit the path he has chosen, just like wilder & Dyche have picked the players for their path.

I don't want Dean to go.....I want him to work more on the issues and reverse the trend of easily conceding.

watching one of the current football programmes of yesteryear and one pundit said, we was struggling, so we focused on defence in training every hour we had............thats what I want to see.

 

 

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On 19/03/2020 at 17:22, TRO said:

Simply spot on....first line cannot be emphasised enough imo.

However, I don't think Wilders bubble will burst, i think its wishful thinking by folk who are frustrated, by the sheer simplicity of his approach......they said the same about us during our halcyon days, they all laughed at work rate then and Ron's Mantra....but his team went on beat one of the best assembled teams in Europe and his recruitment was designed to fit his philosophy, he lost top players, but bought similiar types in...Gray/withe, Gidman/swain I am not saying we all have to play like Athletico Madrid, but the lessons to be gleaned are crucial to premier league sustainability.

 

 

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Yet again I will emphasise that I don't necessarily want Dean to leave. I would love him to stay but the issue I have with his overall performance is that he seems unable to learn from his mistakes. Doing the same things and expecting different results is defined as lunacy.

ATB 

VLD.

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We havent played a game in about 3 weeks not sure really so much to praise or criticise in this thread at the moment 😂

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On 21/03/2020 at 02:07, kurtsimonw said:

A lot of it is ifs and buts. I agree there's no guarantee of anything.

I don't necessarily feel we need to be more, defensive, but there's no need to be as open as we are. In transition, we look as bad as we did in our relegation season. Anytime we lose the ball, I fear we will concede.

I genuinely do believe that the skill gap between the squads below Everton is really minimal, though. I think this idea that we're somehow inferior to every other squad and that the fact we're even in touching distance is some sort of miracle is just not right. In terms of talent, I think West Ham maybe have a slight edge over everyone, but again I think it's minimal and they're struggling because Pellegrini is just a really bad coach IMO and put them in a terrible situation. That's the thing down the bottom for me, the coaching is even more key than it is at the top end. Pellegrini again being a good example, in that he won the title simply because he had by far and away the best squad. But down the bottom where things are tighter, that's where coaching is even more important and that's where we lack. Whether it be the system, the decision making, the timing of changes. It's just been really bad for me.

In a nutshell.

Mainly, because we struggle to win it back.

Edited by TRO

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6 hours ago, Graham t said:

Yet again I will emphasise that I don't necessarily want Dean to leave. I would love him to stay but the issue I have with his overall performance is that he seems unable to learn from his mistakes. Doing the same things and expecting different results is defined as lunacy.

ATB 

VLD.

Is it a case of not learning or not willing to adapt and change up his style of football?

A style many of us are calling naive at this level.

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