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Dean Smith

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11 hours ago, Keyblade said:

I do. I just find it interesting that someone would want to replace Smith with Potter considering by whatever metric that Smith is apparently failing, Potter would too. They're under somewhat similar circumstances too. Difference is Potter looks to being given time.

'Similar circumstances '....

Potter 62.5 million spent in summer

Smith 146 million spent in summer

not exactly similar then......

ATB

VLD

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9 minutes ago, Graham t said:

'Similar circumstances '....

Potter 62.5 million spent in summer

Smith 146 million spent in summer

not exactly similar then......

ATB

VLD

To be fair Brighton have spent 210m+ since they got promoted.

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It's easy to look at raw numbers and draw any conclusion you want really.

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57 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

We've been promoted.

The Premier League is more difficult than the Championship.

I thought we knew that?.....perhaps we should have been " Prepared"

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3 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Wow this Dean Smith debate could go on for months without us playing a game!

And some will focus on our long run without a defeat while others will focus on us not winning any games :D 

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28 minutes ago, TRO said:

I thought we knew that?.....perhaps we should have been " Prepared"

There's only so much preparation you can do with FFP breathing down your neck.

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3 hours ago, zab6359 said:

Arguable Dyche is the only real over achiever there! Rest are mediocre/poor PL managers!

And Dyche was relegated in his 1st season in the league 

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8 hours ago, Keyblade said:

Who can we attract that can do that? We're a shit team. We were just promoted as the 5th place Championship team. We're not exactly going to attract an Ancelotti are we? Also it's not even time to be thinking about being at the top of the shit pile. We're still paying Championship wages. Our goal has always been just be the least shit out of the bottom 4 teams so I don't understand this urgency to shoot straight to midtable when even Purslow admits it would take about 3 years of steady growth to even compete with the Burnleys of this world.

Wilder has shown that simply a bit of discipline and defensive stability in a system can go a long way.

Potter and Smith get plaudits for trying to "play the right way", but it just shows their limitations of a coach. Anyone can want their team to play like 2008 Barca, it's getting your team to achieve without being able to play that way that sets you apart IMO.

(FWIW, I think Wilder will be Championship or PL fodder within a few years. Bubble will burst very quickly)

Edited by kurtsimonw

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On 16/03/2020 at 22:58, Zatman said:

The plan for this season was to get promoted. Deano is being punished for his own over achievement 

Not targeting you in particular, Z old chap, but I keep seeing this argument and I just want to say I think it is bizarre.

First, no club can determine when it is going to get promoted. The world just isn’t like that. You have to seize the opportunity when it arises and make the most of it. It’s particularly odd to say the club had a plan last season not to get promoted when the previous manager was sacked halfway through for failing to put us on course for promotion - the same manager who had cabbages thrown at him for failing to get us promoted the previous season as well! Where on earth does this odd idea come from that we didn’t want to be promoted last season?

But just suppose it is true., having got promoted by accident, do you just say “oh, we got promoted too early, we had better get relegated and start again”? That’s an even more puzzling idea. Having got promoted we needed an approach that was focused on premier league survival and building for the future from within the Pl.. In my view that includes having a manager who has the nous and experience to create solid and pragmatic football of the sort that gets you mid table stability. I’m afraid Dean Smith isn’t the man for that.

Reflecting the discussion about Potter as well, he isn’t the man either. Down here in Brighton where I live, there are growing calls for him to be sacked, very much on the same grounds as those aimed at Smith.

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1 hour ago, kurtsimonw said:

Wilder has shown that simply a bit of discipline and defensive stability in a system can go a long way.

Potter and Smith get plaudits for trying to "play the right way", but it just shows their limitations of a coach. Anyone can want their team to play like 2008 Barca, it's getting your team to achieve without being able to play that way that sets you apart IMO.

(FWIW, I think Wilder will be Championship or PL fodder within a few years. Bubble will burst very quickly)

Yeh, just been watching 2000/2001 season review and Ipswich being promoted and finishing 5th. Man City also promoted along with them and straight back down.

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54 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

Not targeting you in particular, Z old chap, but I keep seeing this argument and I just want to say I think it is bizarre.

First, no club can determine when it is going to get promoted. The world just isn’t like that. You have to seize the opportunity when it arises and make the most of it. It’s particularly odd to say the club had a plan last season not to get promoted when the previous manager was sacked halfway through for failing to put us on course for promotion - the same manager who had cabbages thrown at him for failing to get us promoted the previous season as well! Where on earth does this odd idea come from that we didn’t want to be promoted last season?

But just suppose it is true., having got promoted by accident, do you just say “oh, we got promoted too early, we had better get relegated and start again”? That’s an even more puzzling idea. Having got promoted we needed an approach that was focused on premier league survival and building for the future from within the Pl.. In my view that includes having a manager who has the nous and experience to create solid and pragmatic football of the sort that gets you mid table stability. I’m afraid Dean Smith isn’t the man for that.

Reflecting the discussion about Potter as well, he isn’t the man either. Down here in Brighton where I live, there are growing calls for him to be sacked, very much on the same grounds as those aimed at Smith.

No one is suggesting this, you’ve missed the point completely.

The board set a realistic target of promotion within two seasons which Smith achieved within 1 = overachievement. 

That early promotion thrust us into the premier league with barely half a squad and a complete rebuild to do which is a ridiculously tough task in any league let alone arguably the toughest league in the world. This has ultimately put Smith’s job at risk because the majority of our fan base have absolutely no concept of realistic expectations nor patience.
 

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8 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

No one is suggesting this, you’ve missed the point completely.

The board set a realistic target of promotion within two seasons which Smith achieved within 1 = overachievement. 

That early promotion thrust us into the premier league with barely half a squad and a complete rebuild to do which is a ridiculously tough task in any league let alone arguably the toughest league in the world. This has ultimately put Smith’s job at risk because the majority of our fan base have absolutely no concept of realistic expectations nor patience.
 

Just to say I haven’t missed the point completely. 😀

No football board can determine when its club is going to get promotion. 

The only “realistic expectation” I have as a fan is that the manager should set up the team to achieve as much as it can given the abilities of the available players.

This is what Smith has failed to do.

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3 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

Just to say I haven’t missed the point completely. 😀

No football board can determine when its club is going to get promotion. 

The only “realistic expectation” I have as a fan is that the manager should set up the team to achieve as much as it can given the abilities of the available players.

This is what Smith has failed to do.

Thank you for pointing out that a board can’t see into the future with complete certainty. This nothing statement alone proves you’ve missed the point. 

What a board CAN do however is make an evaluation of their current position and set a realistic target/goal for promotion. 

As for your comment about your realistic expectation as a fan - fair enough and I agree to an extent. The board want attacking football as in the long run it’ll give us greater opportunity to reach the heights that we want to versus playing defensive survival football. Smith has committed to this, it hasn’t worked out, and you can definitely argue that he’s been stubborn in his approach to changing this despite the change in formation.

I firmly believe however that the damage was done with our summer recruitment and that even if we shifted to a more defensive style we would still be rubbish. We bought players from completely random nationalities and leagues and made the task of integrating a new squad together even more difficult as a result. As the season has gone on, our confidence has completely disappeared which has led us to our current predicament. 

It’s not necessarily a matter of “Smith has taken us backwards”, people need to realise that.

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5 hours ago, The Hawk said:

No one is suggesting this, you’ve missed the point completely.

The board set a realistic target of promotion within two seasons which Smith achieved within 1 = overachievement. 

That early promotion thrust us into the premier league with barely half a squad and a complete rebuild to do which is a ridiculously tough task in any league let alone arguably the toughest league in the world. This has ultimately put Smith’s job at risk because the majority of our fan base have absolutely no concept of realistic expectations nor patience.
 

So if he goes down, he's failed then, yes?

If the logic is that Year 2 was the aim for PL, if we go down we're in the Championship in Year 2 and therefore it's a failure.

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1 hour ago, kurtsimonw said:

So if he goes down, he's failed then, yes?

If the logic is that Year 2 was the aim for PL, if we go down we're in the Championship in Year 2 and therefore it's a failure.

Sure, if you view failing to achieve promotion from the championship for two consecutive years the same as getting promoted in year one and then getting relegated. I dont. 

As for this season alone, relegation would be a failure of very fine margins. The difference between this season being a “success” and a “failure” could be a last minute goal on the final day. In either scenario, I’d be giving Smith until Nov/Dec before considering the sack.

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If we go down this season then next season we'd be a year behind schedule as the plan was to be in the PL for the 20/21 season.

Was always a risk when going up before being ready and having to slap together a squad from almost nothing. Still, going up a year ahead of scheduled saved the club from pretty much going bust.

Staying in the Championship and building slowly is not an option when you have such a huge wage budget like us eating a giant hole in the coffers. 

Also, the "schedule" thing is a bit of a nothing as there are too many moving parts and variables to take into account. The "schedule" is pretty much a motivational kitty poster on the wall rather than a blueprint.

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43 minutes ago, sne said:

If we go down this season then next season we'd be a year behind schedule as the plan was to be in the PL for the 20/21 season.

Was always a risk when going up before being ready and having to slap together a squad from almost nothing. Still, going up a year ahead of scheduled saved the club from pretty much going bust.

Staying in the Championship and building slowly is not an option when you have such a huge wage budget like us eating a giant hole in the coffers. 

Also, the "schedule" thing is a bit of a nothing as there are too many moving parts and variables to take into account. The "schedule" is pretty much a motivational kitty poster on the wall rather than a blueprint.

Absolutely this.

18/19, despite was Purslow and others may say, was a "last chance" of sorts, because FFP would've strangled us to death. We would've been living in the loan market forever, like most clubs down there, so no matter when we went up it would always be the same issue of having to spend a fortune just to keep the Championship level squad we had.

The investment and quality in the squad is sufficient to keep us up. 17th would be a "success" in a very black and white World. Should we stay up, even if it's finishing 15th, I'd struggle to consider it a great season. The quality of football, the decision making... it's been absolutely awful from Smith. A last gasp winner to keep us up on the final day shouldn't be a deciding factor in whether he keeps the job or not, he shouldn't. 

 

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1 minute ago, kurtsimonw said:

Absolutely this.

18/19, despite was Purslow and others may say, was a "last chance" of sorts, because FFP would've strangled us to death. We would've been living in the loan market forever, like most clubs down there, so no matter when we went up it would always be the same issue of having to spend a fortune just to keep the Championship level squad we had.

The investment and quality in the squad is sufficient to keep us up. 17th would be a "success" in a very black and white World. Should we stay up, even if it's finishing 15th, I'd struggle to consider it a great season. The quality of football, the decision making... it's been absolutely awful from Smith. A last gasp winner to keep us up on the final day shouldn't be a deciding factor in whether he keeps the job or not, he shouldn't. 

 

I like Smith and will forever be thankful for him getting us promoted, But I also think we need to look to another manager if we are to push on.

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