Dean Smith

[TRO]

11 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

Then we agree.

That 2nd half at VP against Leeds i will never forget.

How they pressed and ran at us like dogs was admirable. Even being 2-0 down they just kept coming at us And it's not often i say that for an opponent.

How they played that 2nd half is exactly the type of team i want Villa to be. I just feel we are too soft.

Its funny, because that game sticks in my mind too.....for all the wrong reasons.

I know one game dosen't define who you are....but equally one game like that , can give you a good indication.

I guess, my problem is.....I have seen many Villa teams over the years who are "never say die" and were miserly at conceding.....its just not happened in recent years.

Edited March 5, 2020 by TRO

[weedman]

44 minutes ago, TRO said:

I am not upset in the slightest and if I respond to other posters posts, thats my business, if you don't like the comments, either make yours as you are, or dismiss mine.I admit, I have focused on what i consider our main concern. I like to look of Samatta, there is that better.

If you think some of the fundamental errors and inability to close opponents down is acceptable for us as part of the overall scheme of things , I emphatically disagree, it needs urgently fixing......your response to putting these things right as possibly finishing 4th is pure hyperbole.....you have gone to an extreme to challenge my concerns....I told you where i expected to finish, i didn't expect to concede with the ease and regularity as we do, that might be painful to take, sorry its reality.

Crystal Palace are currently sitting on having scored 25 goals against our 34, but 11 points to the better....they are also 6 places below Sheff Utd, before you start preaching about how long they have been in the division.

We need to get the defensive capability of our game right and implying otherwise to keep yourself onside from negativity is naive......I am well capable of exercising so called positivity....but while I see my team flirting with relegation and can clearly see the issues, that are leading us there, I feel compelled to say so....burying your head in the sand in the name of positivity and wallowing over 34 goals for, won't save us.

Maybe, I have said it too many times, maybe my frustration has got the better of me.....but maybe too many have also dismissed it, too, as a mere irritation.

I see many, with little concern, for the goals against, thinking we can shoot our way out......yeah and I sincerely hope they are right.....experience tells me different, we need clean sheets, like Trump will need votes

Look again, I agree with a lot of what you say, we do have issues, defending is a big one, I think that's at least in part down to a fairly ineffective midfield, which has obviously not been aided by the long term injury to our main player in that position. 

And again, all I am trying to say is that it is very conceivable that we could finish exactly where you or I predicted we would be in spite of these issues that we clearly have. That's not saying I don't care about them, that's not saying I don't think we should ever look to improve our defending, and defending, like attacking, isn't just about defenders or attackers, it's about the whole team - the balance is critical and obviously we pretty much had to build our entire team in 1 transfer window so, and this may be where our expectations differ, I accept that there will be certain issues with the team balance as a result of that, you do not.

That explains our difference in opinion here I feel. I believe that certain problems or issues with our team were inevitable this season, and that's why I anticipated that we'd struggle and I would have taken 17th at the start of the season. Its not that I don't care about them, it's not that I never want them solved, it's not that I think we can concede 300 goals a season and be ok.

Again I'll reiterate that no team finishes 17th (or 15th, as per your prediction) while playing consistently well, it simply doesn't happen. Teams that finish that low will all have issues, ours is an ineffective midfield and leaky defence, Newcastles (as an example) is virtually no goal threat despite their having spent as much on attackers as we've spent on our whole team. Norwich and Brighton are similar to ourselves really but Brighton probably have a bit more nous. Watford are an anti football team of thugs that only know how to bully teams and fall apart when that doesn't work. I could go on but the point is there.

The issues we have are well documented, and I personally don't think we need reminding of them every few hours for the entire season, these things take time to fix, fix one problem and it can create another just as easily. We built virtually our whole team in 1 transfer window so I don't think it makes me such an horrendous fan or someone blissfully oblivious to any issues

As for the Palace and Sheff Utd mentions as well, they both have good defences, and while I've never "preached" about how long either have been in the division, it's not about time in this division, rather than time as the team playing together. Both have been built up with little bits added here and there over the last several years, we were effectively cobbled together in 1 transfer window

[sheepyvillian]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

imo.....don't know whats happened there.

I think Eddie Howe had seen what we hadn't. I think Webster would have been a better buy. 

It's funny, people go on about mobility and that lack of in some of our defenders, but big Ken from back in the day was most certainly not the quickest, but he had that vital ingredient that all the best centre - halves have. A commanding presence which demands respect. I'm afraid I don't see that in our defenders. Too much surface and not enough substance imo. 

[Rob182]

21 hours ago, sne said:

Of course defense is important, would be extremely silly to say otherwise.

Look no further than at how we were for the first half of last season when we didn't have any defenders to see how terrible we were.

Edit: During the 11 games that defensive specialist Bruce managed us last season we shipped 1.6 goals/game and I'm guessing something similar when gung ho Smith took over. This was because we had no defenders in the squad. When the January window closed and we had brought in defenders we shipped 0.8 goals during the last 17 games in the league...

But there are more ways than one to skin a cat. We didn't have the players last season suited to play defensively (and I don't think we have this season either) and the most successful teams out there defend very high up the pitch, not with their defenders or even defensive midfielders.

As for how we will look and perform next season it's too early to tell. We don't know what division we will be in, what manager or players we will have. Nor do we know which teams we will face, what managers they will have or what players they will have.

I feel like @TRO is taking a very simplistic view of Smith's managerial ability. His team leak goals in the prem, therefore his team will leak goals in the Championship. We often only play(ed) well because of Grealish/ Tammy/ amazing 10-game run, and that won't happen again without Grealish/Tammy etc.

There are so many other things to consider.

As you've mentioned @sne, after Smith sorted out Bruce's defence last season, we greatly improved at defending. This season it's reversed, and Bruce's Newcastle have a better defensive record than us, but let's also consider the fact that Bruce is managing a team that have been in the Prem longer than us and, therefore, have:

1) a way, way, way more settled squad

2) better players

Then we move on to our attacking prospects. Yes, if we go down we'll almost certainly lose Grealish and Mings, but with the £80-100m we'll receive, we'll be able to reinvest (some of) that on incomings. Smith has shown before that he can make smart signings. Tyrone Mings was a masterstroke that no-one predicted (and most thought he was a crock coming in to play left-back!), Samatta is looking like a great buy for a reasonable £8-10m. If we go down, I trust Dean & co to replace any outgoings with replacements to fire us back to play-offs, at a minimum!

We'll probably lose another couple of players (maybe McGinn and Luiz), but most of this squad will stay together and will become more of a unit, much like Sheffield United have become, and people wish we were like.

Next season, whatever league we're in, Smith will benefit from only needing to bring in a handful of players, instead of having to deal with a massive overhaul.

[sne]

19 minutes ago, Rob182 said:

I feel like @TRO is taking a very simplistic view of Smith's managerial ability. His team leak goals in the prem, therefore his team will leak goals in the Championship. We often only play(ed) well because of Grealish/ Tammy/ amazing 10-game run, and that won't happen again without Grealish/Tammy etc.

There are so many other things to consider.

As you've mentioned @sne, after Smith sorted out Bruce's defence last season, we greatly improved at defending. This season it's reversed, and Bruce's Newcastle have a better defensive record than us, but let's also consider the fact that Bruce is managing a team that have been in the Prem longer than us and, therefore, have:

1) a way, way, way more settled squad

2) better players

Then we move on to our attacking prospects. Yes, if we go down we'll almost certainly lose Grealish and Mings, but with the £80-100m we'll receive, we'll be able to reinvest (some of) that on incomings. Smith has shown before that he can make smart signings. Tyrone Mings was a masterstroke that no-one predicted (and most thought he was a crock coming in to play left-back!), Samatta is looking like a great buy for a reasonable £8-10m. If we go down, I trust Dean & co to replace any outgoings with replacements to fire us back to play-offs, at a minimum!

We'll probably lose another couple of players (maybe McGinn and Luiz), but most of this squad will stay together and will become more of a unit, much like Sheffield United have become, and people wish we were like.

Next season, whatever league we're in, Smith will benefit from only needing to bring in a handful of players, instead of having to deal with a massive overhaul.

Yeah it's difficult to get these things down in writing unless you want to make a wall of text. That's why many posts come across a bit binary or black and white.

Was the same in the Bruce thread where unless you also brought up any positives about him in every post you were not allowed to voice any critique because then it was blind hate.

Not talking for anyone else here but I'm sure most of those who are critical against Smith also see the positives but chose to focus on the negatives.

[villalad21]

37 minutes ago, Rob182 said:

I feel like @TRO is taking a very simplistic view of Smith's managerial ability. His team leak goals in the prem, therefore his team will leak goals in the Championship. We often only play(ed) well because of Grealish/ Tammy/ amazing 10-game run, and that won't happen again without Grealish/Tammy etc.

But it isn't hard science.

Smith's style with the high defensive line and fullback bombing forward will leave you exposed at the back.

You don't have to be a genius to figure out what Smith is trying to do in his first season as a PL manager is highly ambitious and may i say a tad bit naive.

Edited March 6, 2020 by villalad21

[villa4europe]

would add that bruce sacrifices possession in favour of shape and solidity

we give away possession because we aren't fully up to speed / good enough and often get hit whilst out of shape

you would have to assume that eventually we will either be in the PL and get better players in enabling us to be more comfortable on the ball or get relegated and be at a level enabling us to be better on the ball, if (and its a big if) we had luiz, nakamba and McGinn in the championship next year we'd be fine, same 3 in the PL and im not sure

 

Edited March 6, 2020 by villa4europe

[villa4europe]

2 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

But it isn't hard science.

Smith's style with the high defensive line and fullback bombing forward will leave you exposed at the back.

aren't we the deepest defending team in the league?

[villalad21]

4 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

aren't we the deepest defending team in the league?

I'm saying when we're in possession of the ball.

Just look at the game against Spurs. We are vulnerable to counter attacks and Spurs took advantage of it to full effect.

That Spurs game is a prime example in how Smith want us to play. And it's high risk football.

Edited March 6, 2020 by villalad21

[sne]

1 minute ago, villa4europe said:

aren't we the deepest defending team in the league?

Yeah our issue is that we can't keep hold of the ball enough time high up on the pitch and that when we lose it we are too open.

Our fullbacks do join in attack but that's not the biggest issue IMO.

I'm more annoyed that we don't manage to win the ball higher up and that we don't manage to put teams under pressure in their half.

[VillaChris]

1 hour ago, villalad21 said:

I'm saying when we're in possession of the ball.

Just look at the game against Spurs. We are vulnerable to counter attacks and Spurs took advantage of it to full effect.

That Spurs game is a prime example in how Smith want us to play. And it's high risk football.

I agree with that point. Just seen your location btw, you really posting all this stuff at 3am?!

[vreitti]

1 hour ago, sne said:

Yeah our issue is that we can't keep hold of the ball enough time high up on the pitch and that when we lose it we are too open.

Our fullbacks do join in attack but that's not the biggest issue IMO.

I'm more annoyed that we don't manage to win the ball higher up and that we don't manage to put teams under pressure in their half.

We've been far too lethargic and scattered with our pressing, especially in midfield, where we so easily get overrun. I think it's partly down to fear, but also a lack of stamina. McGinn will surely add a much needed presence in this respect. 

I'm really looking forward to Monday. I'm expecting a mighty response from DS and the team. 

[zab6359]

Just read the last few pages and was going to quote those I disagree with but really can't be bothered. For me DS did brilliantly getting us promoted although the 10 game run was a bit surreal at the time and I definitely don't put it all down to good management but fair play he was the manager at the time.

However for me he's the Trez of managers....says all the right things, works his balls off but in all reality he's never going to cut it at this level! He has shown nothing this season to say he is a PL manager in the making, no shock results same mistakes week in week out. I have a feeling the board will stick with him though, and if we go down he will probably get us back up in a season but I think it will be same old same old with another relegation battle. Just don't think he is good enough at PL level.

[Mazrim]

1 hour ago, zab6359 said:

Just read the last few pages and was going to quote those I disagree with but really can't be bothered. For me DS did brilliantly getting us promoted although the 10 game run was a bit surreal at the time and I definitely don't put it all down to good management but fair play he was the manager at the time.

However for me he's the Trez of managers....says all the right things, works his balls off but in all reality he's never going to cut it at this level! He has shown nothing this season to say he is a PL manager in the making, no shock results same mistakes week in week out. I have a feeling the board will stick with him though, and if we go down he will probably get us back up in a season but I think it will be same old same old with another relegation battle. Just don't think he is good enough at PL level.

You may well be right. I'm nowhere near that line of thinking yet but I can understand it.

[TRO]

17 hours ago, weedman said:

Look again, I agree with a lot of what you say, we do have issues, defending is a big one, I think that's at least in part down to a fairly ineffective midfield, which has obviously not been aided by the long term injury to our main player in that position. 

And again, all I am trying to say is that it is very conceivable that we could finish exactly where you or I predicted we would be in spite of these issues that we clearly have. That's not saying I don't care about them, that's not saying I don't think we should ever look to improve our defending, and defending, like attacking, isn't just about defenders or attackers, it's about the whole team - the balance is critical and obviously we pretty much had to build our entire team in 1 transfer window so, and this may be where our expectations differ, I accept that there will be certain issues with the team balance as a result of that, you do not.

That explains our difference in opinion here I feel. I believe that certain problems or issues with our team were inevitable this season, and that's why I anticipated that we'd struggle and I would have taken 17th at the start of the season. Its not that I don't care about them, it's not that I never want them solved, it's not that I think we can concede 300 goals a season and be ok.

Again I'll reiterate that no team finishes 17th (or 15th, as per your prediction) while playing consistently well, it simply doesn't happen. Teams that finish that low will all have issues, ours is an ineffective midfield and leaky defence, Newcastles (as an example) is virtually no goal threat despite their having spent as much on attackers as we've spent on our whole team. Norwich and Brighton are similar to ourselves really but Brighton probably have a bit more nous. Watford are an anti football team of thugs that only know how to bully teams and fall apart when that doesn't work. I could go on but the point is there.

The issues we have are well documented, and I personally don't think we need reminding of them every few hours for the entire season, these things take time to fix, fix one problem and it can create another just as easily. We built virtually our whole team in 1 transfer window so I don't think it makes me such an horrendous fan or someone blissfully oblivious to any issues

As for the Palace and Sheff Utd mentions as well, they both have good defences, and while I've never "preached" about how long either have been in the division, it's not about time in this division, rather than time as the team playing together. Both have been built up with little bits added here and there over the last several years, we were effectively cobbled together in 1 transfer window

A good response and many things I endorse.

Where I differ, I think is while I accept things take time, I don't feel that is the main issue.....I think you are right about midfield and for me, I think we could have signed more appropriate players to nullify opposition threats....I think many of our midfielders are much of a muchness, I I Think we could have signed similar players to John McGinn, similar in style, quality, might be a big ask.....I did say "before you preach" as others have done, not necessarily you.

You mention the good defence of Crystal Palace and Sheff Utd......that is precisely the centre of my frustration, can't we have one?....Blimey Even Sheff Wed and Blues can dig out against the top teams....Southampton have scored 1 goal more and conceded 1 goal less, but sit on 9 points more ,on 13th place......we are a soft touch of huge proportions.

by the way, Who is such an horrendous fan, that wasn't implied by me.

I hear what you say and partly agree with much of it.....but sadly, I still detect a tone of it was all so inevitable ( but that might be my interpretation)and I don't think it is /was......you are right we could still finish 15th and while the league position would thrill me....The way in which we concede with ease, wouldn't and if we don't address it, we will be back here next season in a similar position.....I think we could have done better in securing points, of that I am sure.

But finally, if you think I have addressed my opinion of inadequate capability to defend, too often......exercise your right to use the "ignore user " button, in most cases I am just commenting on other posters comments, who I enjoy, communicating with,Whether, we agree or not.

If everyone Waxed Lyrical about our current plight, that too may raise eyebrows.....It might be worth remembering it can be just as annoying, for folk dismissing our current Achilles heel as part of the journey.....as it is me banging on about it.

If we get a few clean sheets, you won't hear a peep out of me.

UTV

 

[TRO]

16 hours ago, sheepyvillian said:

I think Eddie Howe had seen what we hadn't. I think Webster would have been a better buy. 

It's funny, people go on about mobility and that lack of in some of our defenders, but big Ken from back in the day was most certainly not the quickest, but he had that vital ingredient that all the best centre - halves have. A commanding presence which demands respect. I'm afraid I don't see that in our defenders. Too much surface and not enough substance imo. 

sadly, you are spot on.

[TRO]

6 hours ago, sne said:

Yeah it's difficult to get these things down in writing unless you want to make a wall of text. That's why many posts come across a bit binary or black and white.

Was the same in the Bruce thread where unless you also brought up any positives about him in every post you were not allowed to voice any critique because then it was blind hate.

Not talking for anyone else here but I'm sure most of those who are critical against Smith also see the positives but chose to focus on the negatives.

much like the Bruce Critiques.....very few mustered any positives.

so I call it a draw.

[sne]

4 minutes ago, TRO said:

much like the Bruce Critiques.....very few mustered any positives.

so I call it a draw.

Yeah that's what I mean.

We all like that we signed McGinn and that Bruce was better than RDM, just as well all enjoyed promotion.

Doesn't mean we have to mention it in ever post or add a caveat every time we say something critical.

[TRO]

11 minutes ago, sne said:

Yeah that's what I mean.

We all like that we signed McGinn and that Bruce was better than RDM, just as well all enjoyed promotion.

Doesn't mean we have to mention it in ever post or add a caveat every time we say something critical.

I genuinely don't know what you mean.

but folk who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[sne]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

I genuinely don't know what you mean.

but folk who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Swell!

I was agreeing with you