Dean Smith

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said:

Agreed.  If we go down then I can't really think of a manager more likely to get us promoted again considering he did it once coming from miles behind the play off places.  It then comes down to whether getting us relegated is a sackable offence on its own regardless, which I don't think it is.

I do not have the same confidence as you, that we would go up automatically, play offs maybe.

we have already just witnessed Sheff Wed, do a commendable job on stopping ManCity, teams down there, can do that and without Jacks creativity, i just can't see it.

Leeds and Albion have demonstrated the art of grinding out results in that league, over 46 games,you need that.

I don't think Dean will learn anything about defending, so I would say, it would be another struggle like its been this season, but at a different end of the league.

[Tomaszk]

55 minutes ago, TRO said:

I do not have the same confidence as you, that we would go up automatically, play offs maybe.

we have already just witnessed Sheff Wed, do a commendable job on stopping ManCity, teams down there, can do that and without Jacks creativity, i just can't see it.

Leeds and Albion have demonstrated the art of grinding out results in that league, over 46 games,you need that.

I don't think Dean will learn anything about defending, so I would say, it would be another struggle like its been this season, but at a different end of the league.

I don't think you've watched any championship football outside of Villa games.

[sne]

7 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

I don't think you've watched any championship football outside of Villa games.

Didn't Norwich win the Championship at a canter last season while shipping a silly amount of goals?

Checked and indeed they did, 57 goals conceded. Only 4 less than us. 

West Brom conceded 62 last season, 1 more than us and still finished 1 place above us in the table.

[Tomaszk]

6 minutes ago, sne said:

Didn't Norwich win the Championship at a canter last season while shipping a silly amount of goals?

Checked and indeed they did, 57 goals conceded. Only 4 less than us. 

West Brom conceded 62 last season, 1 more than us and still finished 1 place above us in the table.

It's a guff division. The refs, the grounds, the feckin amount of games are all silly.

[TRO]

34 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

I don't think you've watched any championship football outside of Villa games.

Oh, I have......I watched the 10 games before we went on that great 10 game run, too.....did you?

Edited March 5, 2020 by TRO

[TRO]

16 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

It's a guff division. The refs, the grounds, the feckin amount of games are all silly.

But you need a team geared to tackle it....its no good whinging of a guff division, we might have to go back there.

My point is.....we have to deal with it and we may not get another 10 game winning run or a Jack Grealish, Tammy Abraham... to help us.

[Tomaszk]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

But you need a team geared to tackle it....its no good whinging of a guff division, we might have to go back there.

My point is.....we have to deal with it and we may not get another 10 game winning run or a Jack Grealish, Tammy Abraham... to help us.

I agree, work to be done.

I disagree teams down there can shut up shop because Sheff Wednesday sat in their box v Man City. Almost everyone is conceding over a goal a game.

Obviously we don't have to worry about Leeds, they won't be there next year. Probably West Brom as well, but they aren't a great side anyway.

The best way to get up from the Championship these days is attack and gun your way out. I think we'll be keeping Mings, McGinn, Samatta, Heaton for one season. Keeping Smith is best option.

It's a mighty pain in the arse that we've wasted money on players like Trez and Wes who will struggle down there just like they do here.

[TRO]

56 minutes ago, sne said:

Didn't Norwich win the Championship at a canter last season while shipping a silly amount of goals?

Checked and indeed they did, 57 goals conceded. Only 4 less than us. 

West Brom conceded 62 last season, 1 more than us and still finished 1 place above us in the table.

The average goals against this season in the top 6, projected against 46 games will be 45......That strikes me as many teams have tightened up......Brentford after 36 games have conceded 33, Leeds a miserly 30.

I think you will find conceding goals is a very significant component in the grand old scheme of success.

don't confuse, boring defensive football, with being able to defend well and nullify the oppositions threat.....a team with a competency for the latter can be very entertaining to watch too and winning football to boot.

last season we conceded 61 against Sheff Utd's 41.....it strikes me they were far more prepared defensively to take on the prem and the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Norwich scored 93 goals last season and conceded 57, 4 less than us.....teams in the Prem defend much better hence Norwich's failure to repeat that scoring 25 to date, so by deduction, if you find it harder to score, naturally, you have to be more miserly in conceding.....it stands to reason.

just about every pundit and every fan knows....if you concede like us in the Prem, you are in trouble.....and there is little sign of it changing.....but I hope I am proved wrong.

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by TRO

[sne]

18 minutes ago, TRO said:

The average goals against this season in the top 6, projected against 46 games will be 45......That strikes me as many teams have tighten up......Brentford after 36 games have conceded 33, Leeds a miserly 30.

I think you will find conceding goals is a very significant component in the grand old scheme of success.

don't confuse, boring defensive football.....with being able to defend well and nullify the oppositions threat.....a team with a competency for the latter can be very entertaining to watch and winning football to boot.

Of course defense is important, would be extremely silly to say otherwise.

Look no further than at how we were for the first half of last season when we didn't have any defenders to see how terrible we were.

Edit: During the 11 games that defensive specialist Bruce managed us last season we shipped 1.6 goals/game and I'm guessing something similar when gung ho Smith took over. This was because we had no defenders in the squad. When the January window closed and we had brought in defenders we shipped 0.8 goals during the last 17 games in the league...

But there are more ways than one to skin a cat. We didn't have the players last season suited to play defensively (and I don't think we have this season either) and the most successful teams out there defend very high up the pitch, not with their defenders or even defensive midfielders.

As for how we will look and perform next season it's too early to tell. We don't know what division we will be in, what manager or players we will have. Nor do we know which teams we will face, what managers they will have or what players they will have.

Edited March 5, 2020 by sne

[TRO]

33 minutes ago, sne said:

Of course defense is important, would be extremely silly to say otherwise.

Look no further than at how we were for the first half of last season when we didn't have any defenders to see how terrible we were.

Edit: During the 11 games that defensive specialist Bruce managed us last season we shipped 1.6 goals/game and I'm guessing something similar when gung ho Smith took over. This was because we had no defenders in the squad. When the January window closed and we had brought in defenders we shipped 0.8 goals during the last 17 games in the league...

But there are more ways than one to skin a cat. We didn't have the players last season suited to play defensively (and I don't think we have this season either) and the most successful teams out there defend very high up the pitch, not with their defenders or even defensive midfielders.

As for how we will look and perform next season it's too early to tell. We don't know what division we will be in, what manager or players we will have. Nor do we know which teams we will face, what managers they will have or what players they will have.

I couldn't agree with you more, perhaps not enough have said it like you.....and you are also correct, we have to be able to defend better in midfield as you say and press higher.

Defending is a team responsibility not just the back line.

[weedman]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

There is a thing called exceeding expectations as sheff utd have illustrated....there's no rule to say you have to stop when you reach expectation...its just a mental forecast, which is neither here or there.

We have 11 games left and we could win enough to render the concern obsolete, but its all ifs, buts and maybe's....but lets be clear here, even if we do stay up, it does not negate the crucial inability to allow the oppostion to play and surrender initiative at the drop of a hat, during mostof the season.....its central to us staying in this league, not a superficial add on.

back to performances, if you read my posts carefully,i have NOT unconditionally criticised our performances ,only partially and with a full explanation why.

I make no apologies for criticising our inability to defend as a team or nullify an opponents threat, only in fits and starts have we been able to do it...its not enough.

 

I'm sorry, you can't say you'd expect us to finish around 15th then get all upset when we finish 16th because you need us to exceed your expectations to be satisfied. 

If you read what I wrote you'll see that I never once accused you of "unconditionally criticising", I simply said that you have been vocally critical despite the fact that with minor strokes of luck here and there we'd be where you expected us to be with no real difference in our play

We all accept that ideally we want us to be winning every game, challenging for the title and winning champions leagues, but I personally don't think it's fair to judge or criticise the team based on those expectations, because they're completely unrealistic at this stage. 

This season our expectations were "battle against relegation" and even in your case "hope to finish around 15th", given that we are currently in a relegation battle and very close to your target despite a turbulent time losing the spine of our team I just don't think it warrants the virtually zero positivity and relentless, daily criticism from you.

We are, at worst, very close to where you thought we'd be. You talk every day about expecting us to stop the opponents threat, sieze the initiative in the games, not concede silly goals, dominate the ball etc, and not just every now and then (as we've done) but regularly and consistently, do you realise if we did that we'd probably be 4th this year, not the 15th you expected.

Criticism is good, I'm generally positive and if everyone was like that it'd be boring on here but come on, you can't expect us to basically be Liverpool all season while also saying "I expect us to finish 15th". To finish 15th you have to be pretty bad, inconsistent, either not score enough or conceded too many, have a few glaring weaknesses etc. It was never going to be all rosy this season, whichever way you predicted it would go 

[TRO]

8 hours ago, weedman said:

I'm sorry, you can't say you'd expect us to finish around 15th then get all upset when we finish 16th because you need us to exceed your expectations to be satisfied. 

If you read what I wrote you'll see that I never once accused you of "unconditionally criticising", I simply said that you have been vocally critical despite the fact that with minor strokes of luck here and there we'd be where you expected us to be with no real difference in our play

We all accept that ideally we want us to be winning every game, challenging for the title and winning champions leagues, but I personally don't think it's fair to judge or criticise the team based on those expectations, because they're completely unrealistic at this stage. 

This season our expectations were "battle against relegation" and even in your case "hope to finish around 15th", given that we are currently in a relegation battle and very close to your target despite a turbulent time losing the spine of our team I just don't think it warrants the virtually zero positivity and relentless, daily criticism from you.

We are, at worst, very close to where you thought we'd be. You talk every day about expecting us to stop the opponents threat, sieze the initiative in the games, not concede silly goals, dominate the ball etc, and not just every now and then (as we've done) but regularly and consistently, do you realise if we did that we'd probably be 4th this year, not the 15th you expected.

Criticism is good, I'm generally positive and if everyone was like that it'd be boring on here but come on, you can't expect us to basically be Liverpool all season while also saying "I expect us to finish 15th". To finish 15th you have to be pretty bad, inconsistent, either not score enough or conceded too many, have a few glaring weaknesses etc. It was never going to be all rosy this season, whichever way you predicted it would go 

I am not upset in the slightest and if I respond to other posters posts, thats my business, if you don't like the comments, either make yours as you are, or dismiss mine.I admit, I have focused on what i consider our main concern. I like the look of Samatta, there is that better.

If you think some of the fundamental errors and inability to close opponents down is acceptable for us as part of the overall scheme of things , I emphatically disagree, it needs urgently fixing......your response to putting these things right as possibly finishing 4th is pure hyperbole.....you have gone to an extreme to challenge my concerns....I told you where i expected to finish, i didn't expect to concede with the ease and regularity as we do, that might be painful to take, sorry its reality.

Crystal Palace are currently sitting on having scored 25 goals against our 34, but 11 points to the better....they are also 6 places below Sheff Utd, before you start preaching about how long they have been in the division.

We need to get the defensive capability of our game right and implying otherwise to keep yourself onside from negativity is naive......I am well capable of exercising so called positivity....but while I see my team flirting with relegation and can clearly see the issues, that are leading us there, I feel compelled to say so....burying your head in the sand in the name of positivity and wallowing over 34 goals for, won't save us.

Maybe, I have said it too many times, maybe my frustration has got the better of me.....but maybe too many have also dismissed it, too, as a mere irritation too in the name of spectacle.

I see many, with little concern, for the goals against, thinking we can shoot our way out......yeah and I sincerely hope they are right.....experience tells me different, we need clean sheets, like Trump will need votes

Edited March 5, 2020 by TRO

[sheepyvillian]

10 hours ago, TRO said:

I do not have the same confidence as you, that we would go up automatically, play offs maybe.

we have already just witnessed Sheff Wed, do a commendable job on stopping ManCity, teams down there, can do that and without Jacks creativity, i just can't see it.

Leeds and Albion have demonstrated the art of grinding out results in that league, over 46 games,you need that.

I don't think Dean will learn anything about defending, so I would say, it would be another struggle like its been this season, but at a different end of the league.

It's the players who need to learn. I'm sure John Terry has more than once gave them a few lessons in the art of defending. I have to say, Mings is a terrible header of a ball for a centre - half, the defenders have, in the main, been atrocious at times, but I wouldn't put the blame entirely at Dean's door. 

[villalad21]

Derby does look pretty woeful against Utd.

If this is the level of the league maybe i'll have to concede and say we'll probably walk it in the Championship (If we get relegated)

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said:

It's the players who need to learn. I'm sure John Terry has more than once gave them a few lessons in the art of defending. I have to say, Mings is a terrible header of a ball for a centre - half, the defenders have, in the main, been atrocious at times, but I wouldn't put the blame entirely at Dean's door. 

I am not Sheepy, but he is ultimately responsible and him and only him can influence it.....He got the praise last season and rightfully so, now its the not so nice side.

I am not saying you are wrong about the players and it saddens me to agree with you about Mings, he has lost his edge imo.....don't know whats happened there.

I think we expose our back line to too much pressure, maybe its got to him? who knows...  they just run through us.

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

Derby does look pretty woeful against Utd.

If this is the level of the league maybe i'll have to concede and say we'll probably walk it in the Championship (If we get relegated)

But the thing is, its the ugly teams we struggle against.....and there is a few down there.

[villalad21]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

But the thing is, its the ugly teams we struggle against.....and there is a few down there.

Don't really agree with that. Smith seem to do pretty well against Bruce at least.

What we struggle against are teams like Leeds. Aggressive teams that doesn't give us any time on the ball. Teams that tries to bully us.

But as said before if we do end up getting relegated i really hope we won't have to come up against Bielsa again. But i think Baggies and Leeds will go up.

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

Don't really agree with that. Smith seem to do pretty well against Bruce at least.

What we struggle against are teams like Leeds. Aggressive teams that doesn't give us any time on the ball. Teams that tries to bully us.

But as said before if we do end up getting relegated i really hope we won't have to come up against Bielsa again. But i think Baggies and Leeds will go up.

thats what I meant, but never explained properly......we like time and space to play, give us that and we can play.....deny us that and we faulter.

Edited March 5, 2020 by TRO

[villalad21]

6 minutes ago, TRO said:

thats what I meant, but never explained properly......we like time and space to play, give us that and we can play.....deny us that and we faulter.

Then we agree.

That 2nd half at VP against Leeds i will never forget.

How they pressed and ran at us like dogs was admirable. Even being 2-0 down they just kept coming at us And it's not often i say that for an opponent.

How they played that 2nd half is exactly the type of team i want Villa to be. I just feel we are too soft.

Edited March 5, 2020 by villalad21

[useless]

But it's playing like that that in part cost Leeds promotion last season as it eventually tired them out, so you have to get the balance right.