Dean Smith

[TRO]

16 minutes ago, sne said:

Fair enough, which 2 teams (or more) do you think will finish above us in the Championship next season?

Its not case of names, more generics.

Its no surprise to me that Sheff Utd have made a good fist of it this season, due to how they play....despite having been in Div 1 ,2 seasons ago.

it does not surprise me to see Albion & Leeds occupying the top 2 spots, by the way they play.

Dean needs to demonstrate he has a complete handle on the defensive side of the game, for me to tweak my opinion of him.....without losing his attacking prowess.

[Sam-AVFC]

@Laughable Chimp to be fair I imagine it will be almost impossible to account for as there if inflation then there’s the tv deal inflation. Fluctuations of the £ against the euro probably makes a not insignificant difference too but would be a nightmare to unpick.

I think you’re on the right track with the wage bill. Although I guess ours may be slightly inflated as most players signed last summer, it still seems like the easiest thing to compare.

[sparrow1988]

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

I am not suggesting we sack Dean Smith....we still have 13 games to go.

buts lets just look at the mentality of Liverpool....as an example of attitude and drive.

• Brendan Rodgers was not doing a bad job, would we have sacked him? not likely.....but their bar is much higher than ours in terms of winning and success and their pursuit of it.
• Shankly said when he put his arm around Ron Yeats and said "its time up big man" it was the hardest thing he ever had to do, in view of his service to Liverpool...but he also said" it had to be done".

successful teams are ruthless.....we can't keep looking back and patting our selves on the back of what we have done, we have showed our appreciation already.....time to move on.

ps I think Man U have lost their ruthless streak too since Fergie left. And we lost ours after Sir Ron.

 

There is an argument that what we did at the end of last season was ruthless. A lot of players that helped us to promotion were told they are now surplus to requirements. Even with Steer, we said thanks for the shootout and catching that ball at Wembley to relieve the pressure Derby were applying but here's Tom Heaton now and he's better so back to the bench with you. We didn't really look back and congratulate ourselves.

We recognised the achievement for what it was (best loser), then said "what can we do to improve?" Now you can argue all you want about the pros and cons of these attempted improvements but I feel we have a stronger squad, we are stronger in almost every position (up front excluded IMO Tammy is better than what we have but the back up is probably stronger - Samatta better than Kodija) than at the end of last season and I think (survival pending) that we will be stronger at the end of the summer than we are now. I don't know how much input Dean has in these decisions but I'm sure he gives indications to what players he wanted to keep/get rid of and what positions he wanted improving which in a way is ruthless and doesn't get sentimentally attached to the players who have gotten him to whatever point he is at. 

[sne]

15 minutes ago, TRO said:

Its not case of names, more generics.

Its no surprise to me that Sheff Utd have made a good fist of it this season, due to how they play....despite having been in Div 1 ,2 seasons ago.

it does not surprise me to see Albion & Leeds occupying the top 2 spots, by the way they play.

Dean needs to demonstrate he has a complete handle on the defensive side of the game, for me to tweak my opinion of him.....without losing his attacking prowess.

I absolutely think we need to improve our defense to stay up, I also think the change in formation is a way of doing so and has worked to some extent. U are always in risk of shipping 5-10 goals against City unless they have a day off and you are extremely lucky. Will it be enough to stay up? No idea, it was always a 50/50 in my book. Still is.

Also don't feel we would be shipping 2 goals a game in the Championship playing like we do now. For example last season our average was 1.2 goals conceded per game under Smith, and that was despite inheriting a team without a defense up until January. He was allowed to bring in some quality players in January thou so that certainly helped.

[OxfordVillan]

Dean Smith should be our manager/coach next season, regardless of which league we’re in. We’ve had our issues, that’s undeniable. But let’s not overlook the overall record over the last 18 months. It’s positive. It’s under Smith that Grealish has gone up to the top level player we now see, it’s under Smith we won promotion. It’s under Smith we’re going to a league cup final. It’s under Smith that with 13 games to play our destiny is in our own hands. Smith was undoubtedly the driving force in bringing Mings to the club, one of the most influential signings we’ve made in recent years. Pivotal. We’ve basically HAD to put together almost an entire team over the summer, whilst remaining inside FFP rules. We’ve had a terrible injury list taking away three of our 1st team for half of the season. Yet compare where we currently are to Fulham at this stage last season? Fulham sacked Jokanovic and replaced him with a title winning manager in Ranieri......who did worse. You Villa fans have to consider where we came from 18 months ago, be realistic, and look at the bigger picture. This time last season we were all planning for another season in the championship and bracing ourselves for the departure of Jack Grealish for around £30m. Today we’re in the Premier League and a league cup final with Grealish being talked about as a minimum £80m player. Get some perspective ffs!

[MaVilla]

12 minutes ago, sne said:

I absolutely think we need to improve our defense to stay up, I also think the change in formation is a way of doing so and has worked to some extent. U are always in risk of shipping 5-10 goals against City unless they have a day off and you are extremely lucky. Will it be enough to stay up? No idea, it was always a 50/50 in my book. Still is.

Also don't feel we would be shipping 2 goals a game in the Championship playing like we do now. For example last season our average was 1.2 goals conceded per game under Smith, and that was despite inheriting a team without a defense up until January. He was allowed to bring in some quality players in January thou so that certainly helped.

Personally I dont think our "defence" is the problem.

For me the problem is how we "defend as a team", or dont for that matter.

Defence starts with the forwards, then the midfielders, and finally the defence, I think our defence is hung out to try a lot by the fact the midfield and attack doesnt defend properly, doesn't press properly, doesn't do the dirty stuff properly. (Not entirely, but there are many issues with us defending properly as a TEAM)

I think on paper our actual defenders aren't bad, its just defending is a team game, and too often we let teams walk through us and put the defence itself under unnecessary and consistent pressure that didn't need to happen.

Edited February 7, 2020 by MaVilla

[TRO]

38 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

It's hard to take your concerns seriously. 

You wouldn't hear a bad word against the guy who finished 13th in the championship and then failed to get promotion with arguably the best team in the league. 

And now we are meeting the target of survival and in a cup final and all you do is criticise. 

I don't understand how anyone could be passionately for Steve Bruce as manager and not be for Dean Smith. I can't wrap my head around it. 

And I think some of your concerns are valid but he hasn't failed yet. He's done nothing but achieve since arriving. 

can you answer the question, without going in the archives of Steve Bruce, what has that question got to do with Steve Bruce?

If you don't think that conceding nearly 2 goals every game, is not a concern say so?......don't spend you life digressing like a straw man.

[TRO]

5 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

Personally I dont think our "defence" is the problem.

For me the problem is how we "defend as a team", or dont for that matter.

Defence starts with the forwards, then the midfielders, and finally the defence, I think our defence is hung out to try a lot by the fact the midfield and attack doesnt defend properly, doesn't press properly, doesn't do the dirty stuff properly. (Not entirely, but there are many issues with us defending properly as a TEAM)

I think on paper our actual defenders aren't bad, its just defending is a team game, and too often we let teams walk through us and put the defence itself under unnecessary and consistent pressure that didn't need to happen.

I couldn't agree more......that is precisely the problem.

The team can't defend....Norwich are much the same.

[TRO]

16 minutes ago, OxfordVillan said:

Dean Smith should be our manager/coach next season, regardless of which league we’re in. We’ve had our issues, that’s undeniable. But let’s not overlook the overall record over the last 18 months. It’s positive. It’s under Smith that Grealish has gone up to the top level player we now see, it’s under Smith we won promotion. It’s under Smith we’re going to a league cup final. It’s under Smith that with 13 games to play our destiny is in our own hands. Smith was undoubtedly the driving force in bringing Mings to the club, one of the most influential signings we’ve made in recent years. Pivotal. We’ve basically HAD to put together almost an entire team over the summer, whilst remaining inside FFP rules. We’ve had a terrible injury list taking away three of our 1st team for half of the season. Yet compare where we currently are to Fulham at this stage last season? Fulham sacked Jokanovic and replaced him with a title winning manager in Ranieri......who did worse. You Villa fans have to consider where we came from 18 months ago, be realistic, and look at the bigger picture. This time last season we were all planning for another season in the championship and bracing ourselves for the departure of Jack Grealish for around £30m. Today we’re in the Premier League and a league cup final with Grealish being talked about as a minimum £80m player. Get some perspective ffs!

That is fair.

but conceding 2 goals a game is room for concern too....that cannot be swept under the carpet as a trade off.

[TRO]

32 minutes ago, sparrow1988 said:

There is an argument that what we did at the end of last season was ruthless. A lot of players that helped us to promotion were told they are now surplus to requirements. Even with Steer, we said thanks for the shootout and catching that ball at Wembley to relieve the pressure Derby were applying but here's Tom Heaton now and he's better so back to the bench with you. We didn't really look back and congratulate ourselves.

We recognised the achievement for what it was (best loser), then said "what can we do to improve?" Now you can argue all you want about the pros and cons of these attempted improvements but I feel we have a stronger squad, we are stronger in almost every position (up front excluded IMO Tammy is better than what we have but the back up is probably stronger - Samatta better than Kodija) than at the end of last season and I think (survival pending) that we will be stronger at the end of the summer than we are now. I don't know how much input Dean has in these decisions but I'm sure he gives indications to what players he wanted to keep/get rid of and what positions he wanted improving which in a way is ruthless and doesn't get sentimentally attached to the players who have gotten him to whatever point he is at. 

fair point.

[TRO]

27 minutes ago, sne said:

I absolutely think we need to improve our defense to stay up, I also think the change in formation is a way of doing so and has worked to some extent. U are always in risk of shipping 5-10 goals against City unless they have a day off and you are extremely lucky. Will it be enough to stay up? No idea, it was always a 50/50 in my book. Still is.

Also don't feel we would be shipping 2 goals a game in the Championship playing like we do now. For example last season our average was 1.2 goals conceded per game under Smith, and that was despite inheriting a team without a defense up until January. He was allowed to bring in some quality players in January thou so that certainly helped.

1.2 thats interesting too....but we are giving ourselves a mountainous task.

its 50/50 with me too.

I don't know how many games this season we have failed to score, but i would guess its not many.....that is commendable....but I agree with you we need some clean sheets to stay up.

[KenjiOgiwara]

59 minutes ago, TRO said:

I am not suggesting we sack Dean Smith....we still have 13 games to go.

buts lets just look at the mentality of Liverpool....as an example of attitude and drive.

• Brendan Rodgers was not doing a bad job, would we have sacked him? not likely.....but their bar is much higher than ours in terms of winning and success and their pursuit of it.
• Shankly said when he put his arm around Ron Yeats and said "its time up big man" it was the hardest thing he ever had to do, in view of his service to Liverpool...but he also said" it had to be done".

successful teams are ruthless.....we can't keep looking back and patting our selves on the back of what we have done, we have showed our appreciation already.....time to move on.

ps I think Man U have lost their ruthless streak too since Fergie left. And we lost ours after Sir Ron.

 

Ruthless eh? 

Then you would know I guess that Klopp's first season they finished 8th. And that's with Liverpool insanely good squad that's been assembled and gelled over YEARS in the CL. 

Fact is that success isn't easy. It isn't linear. It will take time, ups and downs and bad nights. 

I'm willing to bet that a lot of the managers that's within our reach, that some of you think would be better option, would have done a lot worse for us if they were placed in Deano's shoes this season. It's a bonkers task to gel a new team over 12 months. The ownwrs probably know this and have considered relegation being likely for a team only coming up through play offs. 

The curse of this club is the constant crazy expectations of the fans. You got two pools of people who are like a disease to progress. One side you got the 45-55 year old dinosaurs who think because we won something once, means we're entitled to better. They are unfortunately too young to remember the late 60s and early 70s. On the other side you got their whinging kids who are 16-30 and got their warped view of football from their fathers. The same imbeciles you find on facebook and most likely are present in hordes at away matches. 

If success was all about changing managers Man Utd wouldn't be a mid table club. 

 

[TRO]

36 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

Ruthless eh? 

Then you would know I guess that Klopp's first season they finished 8th. And that's with Liverpool insanely good squad that's been assembled and gelled over YEARS in the CL. 

Fact is that success isn't easy. It isn't linear. It will take time, ups and downs and bad nights. 

I'm willing to bet that a lot of the managers that's within our reach, that some of you think would be better option, would have done a lot worse for us if they were placed in Deano's shoes this season. It's a bonkers task to gel a new team over 12 months. The ownwrs probably know this and have considered relegation being likely for a team only coming up through play offs. 

The curse of this club is the constant crazy expectations of the fans. You got two pools of people who are like a disease to progress. One side you got the 45-55 year old dinosaurs who think because we won something once, means we're entitled to better. They are unfortunately too young to remember the late 60s and early 70s. On the other side you got their whinging kids who are 16-30 and got their warped view of football from their fathers. The same imbeciles you find on facebook and most likely are present in hordes at away matches. 

If success was all about changing managers Man Utd wouldn't be a mid table club. 

 

But Man U have lost their ruthless edge since Fergie.....I think Mourinho a great manager, but just the wrong fit for UTD.

It does take time, only if you are doing the right things.....time is abstract and if you are not doing the right things, its like waiting for a bus or train thats never coming.

We will see if you are right and I guess the owners who are closer to the whole thing behind the scenes will know.

The expectations of the fans of this club have always been modest, its a total myth to suggest otherwise....The Dinosaurs as you eloquently put it have had the experience to see what other managers have done, good and bad and the results accordingly.

I was unfortunate enough to be around when  Tommy Cummings, Tommy Docherty, Billy McNeil, Vic Crowe etc were all doing their best, in fact Vic left Ron some very good kids to work with....Ron had a style/persona similar to Chris Wilder, Ron played 4-3-3 chris plays 3-5-2 but there outlook on the park was similar, it was clear to see Ron's approach from the previous managers, thats what stood out......its nothing to do with JUST winning the league and European cup....its more to do with the way he done it, his methodology and approach...sure the old chesnut is rolled out times have changed, for those that don't want to face accountability...they will be saying that about Fergie soon, the Dinosaurs that watched United under Fergie.

Its not a case of doom and gloom or depressing talk its a case of facing up to the truth......our defensive record is not defendable imo and worth talking about.

I hope it changes and I will be the first to applaud that, should we do it.......our new moto should be " Clean sheets are us"

Hypothetically, if we never scored another goal this season......but we never conceded one.......we could still stay up.....amazing really isn't it.

 

Edited February 7, 2020 by TRO

[sharkyvilla]

38 minutes ago, TRO said:

That is fair.

but conceding 2 goals a game is room for concern too....that cannot be swept under the carpet as a trade off.

To be fair, if you remove the City debacle as an outlier, since we went 3 at the back we have conceded 7 in 6.  I think we have barely conceded from corners in that time too, when before that we were almost giving teams a goal headstart from set pieces.  It suggests Dean and the coaches have had a bit of success from making changes, even if it goes against Dean's usual footballing philosophy.

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said:

To be fair, if you remove the City debacle as an outlier, since we went 3 at the back we have conceded 7 in 6.  I think we have barely conceded from corners in that time too, when before that we were almost giving teams a goal headstart from set pieces.  It suggests Dean and the coaches have had a bit of success from making changes, even if it goes against Dean's usual footballing philosophy.

thats a bit more encouraging, I will admit....pretty much back to the stats of last season.

[screwdriver]

13 hours ago, Villarocker said:

If we stay up and finished 17th, would you want to keep Smith or sack him and start next season with a new man in charge? 

I don't think it matters who the manager is if we have quality players you will do better than if you have a load of deadarses. Obviously the odd game is decided if you can tweak a system. going 5 at the back after getting battered by watford was crucial. But if we had 1 better centre half than the combined Konsa and Hause we would still be playing 433.

If Paul Lambert had been able to sign the players he wanted where do you think we would be? Lukaku, Coutinhio etc.  in a better place than having dogs like Weiman, Holman and KArim el Ahmedy.

Villa fans want big rep players and believe a big rep manager like Benitez will attract them. Like Bruce was able to bring in Terry Snodgrass Bolasie got us El Gazi from Ajax etc. Smith hasn't made one big name signing. No ones heard of him. No ones heard of the players he signs.

[sne]

57 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

Personally I dont think our "defence" is the problem.

For me the problem is how we "defend as a team", or dont for that matter.

Defence starts with the forwards, then the midfielders, and finally the defence, I think our defence is hung out to try a lot by the fact the midfield and attack doesnt defend properly, doesn't press properly, doesn't do the dirty stuff properly. (Not entirely, but there are many issues with us defending properly as a TEAM)

I think on paper our actual defenders aren't bad, its just defending is a team game, and too often we let teams walk through us and put the defence itself under unnecessary and consistent pressure that didn't need to happen.

I think the personal in defense is part of the problem but obviously not all of it.

I think Konsa and Hause are squad level players atm, potential to develop sure, but not good enough to be starting in the PL yet.

Same probably goes for Engels, be interesting to see when he is back in the team.

And even Mings is struggling bad when put under pressure when he has the ball.

Our wing backs are fine-ish, lower level PL quality with some good and some bad.

But I agree on what you say about the rest of the team.

[sne]

1 minute ago, screwdriver said:

I don't think it matters who the manager is if we have quality players you will do better than if you have a load of deadarses. Obviously the odd game is decided if you can tweak a system. going 5 at the back after getting battered by watford was crucial. But if we had 1 better centre half than the combined Konsa and Hause we would still be playing 433.

If Paul Lambert had been able to sign the players he wanted where do you think we would be? Lukaku, Coutinhio etc.  in a better place than having dogs like Weiman, Holman and KArim el Ahmedy.

Villa fans want big rep players and believe a big rep manager like Benitez will attract them. Like Bruce was able to bring in Terry Snodgrass Bolasie got us El Gazi from Ajax etc. Smith hasn't made one big name signing. No ones heard of him. No ones heard of the players he signs.

Yeah that Pepe Reina fella, at what hell hole did they dig up him, never heard of him. Can't have won much that guy...

[villalad21]

Come on.. comparing Smith to Klopp is just embarrassing.

Klopp broke the Bayern Munich dominance and won domestic titles with Dortmund before he joined Liverpool. He always had good defensive records.

Smith's greatest achievement is 5th in Championship.

I see a lot of people putting our defensive woes down to John Terry. 

Was it JT'S fault that Brentford and Walsall were poor defensively as well?

There is no evidence to support our defensive record will improve with time under Smith. We will always concede 50-60 goals every season under Smith which means we will always remain in a relegation battle.

The pro is his teams score a lot of goals. But i'd rather have a head coach that can do both.

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, sne said:

I think the personal in defense is part of the problem but obviously not all of it.

I think Konsa and Hause are squad level players atm, potential to develop sure, but not good enough to be starting in the PL yet.

Same probably goes for Engels, be interesting to see when he is back in the team.

And even Mings is struggling bad when put under pressure when he has the ball.

Our wing backs are fine-ish, lower level PL quality with some good and some bad.

But I agree on what you say about the rest of the team.

but your points are hard to argue with too.