Dean Smith

[sne]

1 minute ago, DaveAV1 said:

What before the game!!??

Nah, that'll be Maurizio Sarri

[Tomaszk]

8 hours ago, TRO said:

It was interesting to read, but it is unlikely Ian Graham will be able to keep all that to himself.....me not knowing if many other clubs are doing much the same....but the must be plenty of aspiring data scientists who fancy a blast in football.

Any industry finds it hard to secure trade secrets, if that's what you are implying, that its unique to Liverpool......it won't be long before everyone, will have an Ian Graham, if we haven't already.....Data analytics has a place no doubt, how much store is put in to it is anyones guess.

It seems that Klopp did ok before he discovered Ian Graham.

I think many many factors surround a serial winner and no doubt Data Analytics is one, albeit relatively new.....I would suspect many peripheral people at Liverpool and other successful clubs,who use it, will claim a bit of the action and will also make a very intellectual case for it.

Personally, I have mixed feelings towards its ability to sustain a long period of advantage.....if everyone uses it, it will be back to the status quo.

I wonder what Cloughie would think of it?

You start well here but I think you're talking yourself into doubting these methods because you want to.

Cloughy would no doubt hate these methods because he wanted to go out, see the players himself and bring them in. But how could he possibly watch the French second division and the polish premier league enough to judge if he liked players? It's not possible, there's not enough hours in the day.

Where the hell would be we if Martin O'Neill had let a team like Liverpool's bring in his signings in 2007/8/9? I can assure you we'd have had at least two seasons in the Champions League to enjoy.

When all the club's have a department like Liverpool, yes, their influence will waver. We're a long long way from than. Six months ago City were rushing out a job ad for a physicist to try and start a team. That's City. Unlimited resources, reigning champs and (distant) closest challengers.

I really really hope our US owners have a decent starting point to work from with this. Departments like this are far more common and accepted in American sports.

 

[avfc1982am]

46 minutes ago, MotoMkali said:

Ffp has been waived. Next season is the season to invest money into a club. If the owners don't spend 100 million plus it is unlikely that they are serious about investing in the club for the future. That is not including any money we get from grealish. 

That's all very well but you do know that their model is youth based. Not spending vast amounts on players peaking, but developing. Personally I don't see them spending anywhere near the amount last summer if we drop. I believe they will need to still, but don't see it. 

[AvfcTheObsession]

54 minutes ago, MotoMkali said:

Ffp has been waived. Next season is the season to invest money into a club. If the owners don't spend 100 million plus it is unlikely that they are serious about investing in the club for the future. That is not including any money we get from grealish. 

It hasn't been waived for the EFL has it? I heard UEFA relaxed it, which affects all of the top leagues.

The owners have already showed me how serious they are with the hundreds of million they've already lost/spent on the club in such a short space of time.

[avfc1982am]

3 hours ago, mikeyp102 said:

Why what have you heard?

Lets just say not everyone is happy with their teammates. TBH I think it's pretty obvious anyway. Zero continuity on the pitch tells you this. 

[sne]

3 minutes ago, AvfcTheObsession said:

It hasn't been waived for the EFL has it? I heard UEFA relaxed it, which affects all of the top leagues.

The owners have already showed me how serious they are with the hundreds of million they've already lost/spent on the club in such a short space of time.

I read they were going to vote on it, but not heard if they have decided what to do yet?

Massive text on it here:

Quote

COVID-19 and the Financial Regulation of English Football May 1, 2020 Sports In the coming weeks many of England’s football clubs are likely to vote on whether to suspend or remove the regulatory framework that football authorities in England and Europe have developed over the past decade to prevent the financial mismanagement of clubs and protect the sporting integrity of competition. The regulations function primarily by requiring that clubs aim to break even, with excessive financial losses punishable by points deductions and competition bans. However, the postponement of professional football caused by the outbreak of COVID-19 has inflicted serious financial damage on English clubs and football authorities and clubs are grappling with how to adapt these regulations in the context of the crisis. Financial Fair Play Rules There are three different sets of financial regulations that may apply to English clubs depending on the level at which they compete, which are known generally as Financial Fair Play (“FFP”) rules. The English Premier League (“Premier League”) and the English Football League (“EFL”) both impose such rules on their respective clubs, while English clubs that compete in European competitions must also adhere to UEFA’s rules.

https://www.cov.com/-/media/files/corporate/publications/2020/04/covington-alert-covid19-and-the-financial-regulation-of-english-football.pdf

More info in the link.

[VillaCas]

55 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

You start well here but I think you're talking yourself into doubting these methods because you want to.

Cloughy would no doubt hate these methods because he wanted to go out, see the players himself and bring them in. But how could he possibly watch the French second division and the polish premier league enough to judge if he liked players? It's not possible, there's not enough hours in the day.

Where the hell would be we if Martin O'Neill had let a team like Liverpool's bring in his signings in 2007/8/9? I can assure you we'd have had at least two seasons in the Champions League to enjoy.

When all the club's have a department like Liverpool, yes, their influence will waver. We're a long long way from than. Six months ago City were rushing out a job ad for a physicist to try and start a team. That's City. Unlimited resources, reigning champs and (distant) closest challengers.

I really really hope our US owners have a decent starting point to work from with this. Departments like this are far more common and accepted in American sports.

 

Great post - Klopps real strength is man management, I imagine that is where he focuses much of his effort

[Stevo985]

2 hours ago, Blasterpocket68 said:

 

Is football really that different?

 

 

Yes

[mikeyp102]

39 minutes ago, avfc1982am said:

Lets just say not everyone is happy with their teammates. TBH I think it's pretty obvious anyway. Zero continuity on the pitch tells you this. 

Where are you getting this info from? 

[useless]

That thatcherlover/villamole person was saying similar on twitter, if it's come from them I'd be very sceptical, has been caught out a few times.

[MrBlack]

The aging team we had last time we were relegated needed replacing in its entirety.  The team we have this time will need whoever we lose to be replaced, and maybe a decent winger or striker added to it assuming we lose our most creative player in grealish.

Financially we are sound and will have more to spend than last time, with less required and fewer FFP restrictions. 

They're completed different situations.

Mings, McGinn and the others that have only been with us a relatively short time will either sell for decent amounts or have to stay. They're not irreplaceable.

[MrBlack]

1 hour ago, sne said:

I read they were going to vote on it, but not heard if they have decided what to do yet?

Massive text on it here:

https://www.cov.com/-/media/files/corporate/publications/2020/04/covington-alert-covid19-and-the-financial-regulation-of-english-football.pdf

More info in the link.

"protect the sporting integrity of competition" - the most significant thing that FFP achieves is the exact opposite of this. Total joke of a regulation.

[Mjvilla]

4 hours ago, Blasterpocket68 said:

How Disrespectful

Villa Talk is for sharing opinions about the club we all support! 

Is football really that different?

11 Players 

1 ball 

score goals

All the rubbish  surrounding the game has changed and most unfortunately people have no respect and tolerance for other peoples views and opinions! 

 

Absolutely, yes. On a huge scale.

11 players, 1 ball, score goals.

Completely agree. But what goes on behind the scenes is completely different or rubbish as you call it. This rubbish that clubs spend millions on to make the final of those 3 simple things easier. This rubbish is why these players are completely elite athletes. Even arsene Wenger's methods are now out of date, he was seen as revolutionary when he first came from Japan.

I didn't mean any disrespect, and actually feel hurt by your last paragraph suggesting that I'm intolerant of other people's views and opinions. I've been completely fair on Smith, taking people's opinions and trying to provide some balance.

Just because you don't agree with how much football has changed, you call me disrespectful to suggest that some posters need to realise how much it has changed. I'd actually call this hypocritical in that you're being intolerant of my view. 

[avfc1982am]

1 hour ago, mikeyp102 said:

Where are you getting this info from? 

A close friend. Nothing more to add I'm afraid. 

[VillaCas]

43 minutes ago, avfc1982am said:

A close friend. Nothing more to add I'm afraid. 

I’ve also got a couple of contacts and they say it’s just business as usual! There are fall outs all the time at football clubs - what is supposed to be the scale of the issue? 

[Blasterpocket68]

12 hours ago, Mjvilla said:

Why does that matter? The game has moved a long way from 'cloughie'. Not doubting his achievements, of course, but I do wonder how successful he would be in this day and age, however. We can speculate but would never know. 

I think data analytics is far more prevalent in the game than you realise, perhaps. None of us work at a coaching level or senior level of a football club. None of us can fairly comment on the way clubs do transfer business. 

Back in the day of 'cloughie', I'm sure the manager had all the say. It's not like that anymore. I'm not saying that Smith would have no say, more it would be a committee decision based on a all the scout reports, opinions of people and analytics available. Obviously far more complex than I'm making it seem.

Football is a completely different animal from those days, it's moved along way. I think some posters need to follow suit.

 

This is what  i believe  reads a little disrespectful

[Blasterpocket68]

1 hour ago, Mjvilla said:

Absolutely, yes. On a huge scale.

11 players, 1 ball, score goals.

Completely agree. But what goes on behind the scenes is completely different or rubbish as you call it. This rubbish that clubs spend millions on to make the final of those 3 simple things easier. This rubbish is why these players are completely elite athletes. Even arsene Wenger's methods are now out of date, he was seen as revolutionary when he first came from Japan.

I didn't mean any disrespect, and actually feel hurt by your last paragraph suggesting that I'm intolerant of other people's views and opinions. I've been completely fair on Smith, taking people's opinions and trying to provide some balance.

Just because you don't agree with how much football has changed, you call me disrespectful to suggest that some posters need to realise how much it has changed. I'd actually call this hypocritical in that you're being intolerant of my view. 

Not going to debate this with you but to suggest Im hypocritical  fair enough  - Please read back the context of the thread!  

[MrBlack]

The thing about asking what Clough would make of things is, for me, totally irrelevant. The best people at their job,  of any era, are the best because they take what is currently done, and improve on it.

Put the superstars of yesteryear in todays climate and they'd have had the same relative background to anyone else currently as they did in their own time, but they'll do more with it.

The difference is probably that the gap between the top and the bottom of all walks of life is increasing,  so it makes it less likely that someone will break the mould from nothing,  but exceptional people are exceptional and would be so in any era.

[TRO]

10 hours ago, VillaCas said:

Sorry TRO you jump around so much that I’m losing track - I think you are now arguing with yourself

- You said (I’m paraphrasing) ‘top managers are all-powerful and Smith is not’. As has been pointed out by a number of posters here even Klopp etc have to work within a structure - if your argument is that top managers have more power than novice managers then I would (of course) agree however, Smith is nearer to the novice end than the top end

- secondly it goes without saying that £140m could have been spent better - we are not arguing about that. We were discussing how much blame should go to Suso and how much to Smith - my argument was that Suso should take the lions share of blame (but that Smith is not blameless)

- thirdly. I’m not sure what point you are making here? It doesn’t seem to be in response to my post. Like mostly everyone I was unaware of Wesley and Luis but excited to see them play - I did however preach caution and predicted that a 17th place finish would be great achievement this year ( I quoted my post from July 2019 saying exactly this a few pages back)

- four??

- five??

- six - you said (again I paraphrase) ‘a serial winner would get more out of these players’. This is a truism - of course I agree but I pointed out that we are not (yet) in a position to appoint a ‘serial winner’ (like Klopp etc)

- seven, I never once claimed that ‘a manager is not anyway responsible for the signings that a club makes’ - we were arguing how much responsibility he bears. Again my point was that Suso main job is player acquisition and Smith is player performance

- eighth! As I said ‘ I was delighted to get promoted’  You seem to think we have a different opinion on this?

- I agree that should we go down it will almost certainly be a real battle to get back up - however personally I would back Smith to try to achieve this (unless a proven serial winner is available )

To get back to the crux of the argument our main bones of contention seem to be 1) How  good a squad has £140m bought? 2) How much responsibility does the manager bear for signings? and 3) Has the manager got the best out of his players?

My answers are 1) very average 2) some, but the main responsibility sits with the DofF and 3) He’s done ok, could have done better (but in the biggest part this question rests with your view of 1))

TRO, I think for both our sanities shall we agree to disagree and spend our energies sending positive vibes for the rest of the season?

No thats what your doing.....changing what was originally said to suit your narrative......not for the first time.

not interested in continueing this saga.

[Hev]

7 hours ago, MotoMkali said:

Ffp has been waived. Next season is the season to invest money into a club. If the owners don't spend 100 million plus it is unlikely that they are serious about investing in the club for the future. That is not including any money we get from grealish. 

Great FFP waived just as we are likely to drop down. Had it been waived this season we cd have bought better players. Typical that will mean Newcastle's likely new mega rich owners will be able to spend like Man City.