VillaJ100 Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 Some mug will buy Wesley. Never know he might be a world beater in another league... Shevchenko, Crespo and Falcao looked shit in the prem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat Kendrick's Dentist Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 On 21/12/2019 at 18:00, KentVillan said: There's two aspects to Suso's job. One is finding good investments who will grow in value, and the other is finding players who will hit the ground running. I think he's done a pretty good job on the first objective. I doubt even the "flops" will turn out to have been a bad investment financially. Strikers are expensive, and there'll always be someone willing to spend £30m+ on Wesley, especially now he has a Brazil cap... I'm sure of that. But where we've failed resoundingly is in finding players who can perform immediately. Obviously Targett and Heaton have done fairly well, but you hardly need a scouting network to find them. Engels was a player who Smith was already familiar with. So really we haven't found a single player from overseas who has done anything useful. If anyone pays £30m+ for Wesley I will eat my own face. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morley_crosses_to_Withe Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 51 minutes ago, VillaJ100 said: Some mug will buy Wesley. Never know he might be a world beater in another league... Shevchenko, Crespo and Falcao looked shit in the prem. Some mug already bought him 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 We had one chance to build a squad this summer. Think we've cocked it. It certainly wasn't an easy task getting that many players in, not at all. The Wes signing is the one that's killed us. Biggest transfer in our history and to say it's a miss is too kind. It's one that doesn't even register. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Afro Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 When are people going to understand the plan? We bought players with potential in the hope that their value will grow. They are assets. Gone are the days (hopefully) when we waste good money on over the hill journey men. How the hell do you think we got here in the first place! It is too early to judge/write off any of the summer acquisitions. The only one where maybe we took a punt is Jota and even that could still potentially work out. Get a grip people. For once we are trying to build a better future. It will take time but it is the right strategy. The good thing about our current strategy is that even if we do go down, we will still be in a pretty decent position. Keep the faith and support the boys. It is hard and we all feel pissed off but we really are stronger together. I have no idea whether Wes is going to make it. He may not to be honest but writing him off already is ludicrous. Give the kid a break. For what it’s worth and I have been wrong on many occasions, I think he will come good. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 18 minutes ago, M_Afro said: When are people going to understand the plan? We bought players with potential in the hope that their value will grow. They are assets. Gone are the days (hopefully) when we waste good money on over the hill journey men. How the hell do you think we got here in the first place! It is too early to judge/write off any of the summer acquisitions. The only one where maybe we took a punt is Jota and even that could still potentially work out. Get a grip people. For once we are trying to build a better future. It will take time but it is the right strategy. The good thing about our current strategy is that even if we do go down, we will still be in a pretty decent position. Keep the faith and support the boys. It is hard and we all feel pissed off but we really are stronger together. I have no idea whether Wes is going to make it. He may not to be honest but writing him off already is ludicrous. Give the kid a break. For what it’s worth and I have been wrong on many occasions, I think he will come good. If that really is tne “plan”, I want out. Sounds like we are building an investment company rather than a football team. We aren’t going to re-establish ourselves as a premier league side with that approach. And the assumption that relegation would be OK is reckless. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughable Chimp Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 (edited) 41 minutes ago, M_Afro said: When are people going to understand the plan? We bought players with potential in the hope that their value will grow. They are assets. Gone are the days (hopefully) when we waste good money on over the hill journey men. How the hell do you think we got here in the first place! It is too early to judge/write off any of the summer acquisitions. The only one where maybe we took a punt is Jota and even that could still potentially work out. Get a grip people. For once we are trying to build a better future. It will take time but it is the right strategy. The good thing about our current strategy is that even if we do go down, we will still be in a pretty decent position. Keep the faith and support the boys. It is hard and we all feel pissed off but we really are stronger together. I have no idea whether Wes is going to make it. He may not to be honest but writing him off already is ludicrous. Give the kid a break. For what it’s worth and I have been wrong on many occasions, I think he will come good. Who did you think we paid most of our transfer money for the season we were relegated? Adama, Gestede, Ayew, Veretout, Amavi and Gana. What's the common theme here? Aside from Gestede, all of them were players we bought with potential in the hope that their value will grow. Where did that get us? Bottom of the league. The only guy who'd I classify as an over the hill journeyman we bought in that season was Lescott and he came in on a free.(Edit: Oh yeah, there was Mark Bunn but was he even decent at some point to be called over the hill?) I feel like me and you have a different definition of the term "punt". Any risky signing is a punt and naturally, any signing from lower or foreign leagues who haven't fully established themselves yet. The only signings that wouldn't be classified as a "punt" are El Ghazi, Targett, Hause, Mings and Heaton. Everyone else was a "punt" signing. Oh yeah, I'm sure the board thought that we would be in a decent position as well with the likes of Adama, Gestede, Ayew, Veretout, Amavi and Gana even if we did get relegated. We ended getting rid most of them the first chance we got. Only person we got a profit out of that crop was Amavi if you count the loan fee Marseille paid for him. We lost money on Gana and broke even on Veretout. Adama and Ayew's transfer fees were never disclosed but I doubt they were much better. So much for investing in the future. The funny thing is all of them went on to bigger and better things(aside from Ayew but he's had a decent career) but we didn't get to reap any of the rewards of it. It baffles me that people who support this transfer policy are seemingly okay with us getting relegated when we saw first hand the result of that on the team. There is no future if that happens, everything starts from scratch again. Edited December 22, 2019 by Laughable Chimp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 3 hours ago, Mat Kendrick's Dentist said: If anyone pays £30m+ for Wesley I will eat my own face. In a couple of years, £30m will be the going rate for a Championship striker. Wesley has been poor, but he'll still do a job for someone in an easier league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-AVFC Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 6 minutes ago, briny_ear said: If that really is tne “plan”, I want out. Sounds like we are building an investment company rather than a football team. We aren’t going to re-establish ourselves as a premier league side with that approach. And the assumption that relegation would be OK is reckless. Apart from if a player was with us for years and towards the end of their career I can't think of any scenario where buying a player and their value going down has positive implications. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 1 minute ago, Sam-AVFC said: Apart from if a player was with us for years and towards the end of their career I can't think of any scenario where buying a player and their value going down has positive implications. You are measuring the wrong things. The only proper measure of a player purchase is: did they help the team play better? We’re a football club, not a venture capital company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughable Chimp Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 6 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said: Apart from if a player was with us for years and towards the end of their career I can't think of any scenario where buying a player and their value going down has positive implications. I guess you think Tom Heaton is a signing without positive implications then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-AVFC Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 Just now, Laughable Chimp said: I guess you think Tom Heaton is a signing without positive implications then. No but I do think keepers are a bit different. There’s very few outfield players I’d want us to take over 30. Obviously there will always be exceptions with people like Ronaldo Messi etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 50 minutes ago, briny_ear said: You are measuring the wrong things. The only proper measure of a player purchase is: did they help the team play better? We’re a football club, not a venture capital company. No, this is just wrong. Transfer market economics (and FFP rules) mean the only way to climb as a club is to act exactly like a venture capital company - buy low, sell high. How are you seriously arguing against this as a sensible thing to do? The mistake we've made is to not give enough priority to the short-term objective of surviving relegation. But the idea we shouldn't be signing players who will grow in value? Literally every successful football club is run like this, with the exception of the Real Madrids and PSGs who have money to burn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 29 minutes ago, KentVillan said: No, this is just wrong. Transfer market economics (and FFP rules) mean the only way to climb as a club is to act exactly like a venture capital company - buy low, sell high. How are you seriously arguing against this as a sensible thing to do? The mistake we've made is to not give enough priority to the short-term objective of surviving relegation. But the idea we shouldn't be signing players who will grow in value? Literally every successful football club is run like this, with the exception of the Real Madrids and PSGs who have money to burn. Oh Lordy, let me have one more go at this. Nowhere have I said we should not sign players who will grow in value. What I am saying is that in selecting players for a squad the first measure is whether they will improve the squad and help make the team successful, since that is the prime aim of a football club. The bit I’ve highlighted suggests you do understand that. I guess the only other thing worth saying is that a player is more likely to grow in value in a successful team than in an unsuccessful team and that a successful club will have more power in the transfer market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, briny_ear said: Oh Lordy, let me have one more go at this. Nowhere have I said we should not sign players who will grow in value. What I am saying is that in selecting players for a squad the first measure is whether they will improve the squad and help make the team successful, since that is the prime aim of a football club. The bit I’ve highlighted suggests you do understand that. I guess the only other thing worth saying is that a player is more likely to grow in value in a successful team than in an unsuccessful team and that a successful club will have more power in the transfer market. No the measure is will they deliver value for money. Anyone can sign better players that improve a squad, but if you overpay for them, you will eventually run out of cash and / or fall foul of FFP rules. What we needed to do was sign a mix of "investments" and a couple more players in the Mings / Heaton mould (although in fact, I'd say Mings has turned out to be a good investment, as well as delivering on the pitch). But if you follow your logic, it would make sense to just buy a load of 30-year-olds who would give us one season of success. You have to factor in long-term investment growth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 9 minutes ago, KentVillan said: No the measure is will they deliver value for money. Anyone can sign better players that improve a squad, but if you overpay for them, you will eventually run out of cash and / or fall foul of FFP rules. What we needed to do was sign a mix of "investments" and a couple more players in the Mings / Heaton mould (although in fact, I'd say Mings has turned out to be a good investment, as well as delivering on the pitch). But if you follow your logic, it would make sense to just buy a load of 30-year-olds who would give us one season of success. You have to factor in long-term investment growth. I am tempted to invite you to show how anything I have said would lead to a policy of buying 30 year old players who would be successful for one season (I don’t think selecting players purely by age would be a very successful approach, would it?) But I will resist the temptation. I’ve explained my point as clearly as I can and the scope for further discussion is probably exhausted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 6 minutes ago, briny_ear said: I am tempted to invite you to show how anything I have said would lead to a policy of buying 30 year old players who would be successful for one season (I don’t think selecting players purely by age would be a very successful approach, would it?) But I will resist the temptation. I’ve explained my point as clearly as I can and the scope for further discussion is probably exhausted. You know if you say you're resisting the temptation to say something but then write it anyway... that you haven't resisted the temptation? This is the bit: Quote You are measuring the wrong things. The only proper measure of a player purchase is: did they help the team play better? Clearly it's more involved than this. We could for example sign a player for £250m who helps the team play better and then retires in 2 years. He would meet your criterion of helping the team play better, but in the grand scheme of things would probably be a bad signing for the club (unless he won us loads of trophies in those 2 years - which is the Real Madrid / PSG model). Similarly, Chelsea have had a lot of success from buying and loaning out players who never make much of an impact in the first team before being sold on. That has helped them become financially viable as a club, rather than relying on Abramovich's cash handouts. You seem to be saying that this is a bad thing? You're arguing (perhaps without realising it, but it's the only logical implication of your posts) for a very narrow, short-termist approach to the transfer market. I'm saying that we need to be balanced - we need a good enough squad to hit our short-term objectives, but we should also be signing players who will grow in value and allow us to keep upgrading our squad when we sell them on. And if we're lucky, most of those long-term investments will also grow into players who perform well on the pitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Afro Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 8 hours ago, briny_ear said: If that really is tne “plan”, I want out. Sounds like we are building an investment company rather than a football team. We aren’t going to re-establish ourselves as a premier league side with that approach. And the assumption that relegation would be OK is reckless. It is the most sensible and sustainable model. In a few years, when this season’s recruits have fully bedded in, we will really be reaping the benefits. Anything worth having takes time to achieve. We have suffered from years and years of short term quick fixes. It will take some patience from the supporters but I really think it will be worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenjiOgiwara Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 I am sure he knows what he's doing even if some of the buys he may have suggested haven't flourished yet, BUT I dare ask the question whether we need more British grafters to hit the ground running, rather than potential from Europe. I fully understand and support the idea of buying young, but surely there's for instance a good "British" championship striker that can take the step up and help us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted December 23, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted December 23, 2019 There is nothing wrong with the strategy. It's the right strategy. It's that we've identified and bought the wrong players is the problem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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