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Tammy Abraham

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6 hours ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Racism isn't just about intent. It is so ingrained in us white folk that we don't even realise that half the things we say or do, about or to a person of colour is even racist. It doesn't have to be malicious, it just has to 'be'. From there, assuming no malice, your options are open really. 

Learning and evolving is the important part. 

Remember a few years back - Birmingham council renamed christmas 'Wintervall' because somebody though using the word Christmas would offend Muslims - I would argue that it drove more people towards racist tendencies  

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22 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

This is probably the most interesting thing I've read in this thread. How come you ended up as a Villa fan? I just happen to know a few Geordies, migrated from Newcastle to Oslo in the 70-80s and they are some of the most fiercely loyal fanatic people of any football club I've ever met. 

OT - but strongly family links to the Midlands, Villa Park was the first ground I went to watch a match in the flesh, and one match watching Tony Daley was enough for me to make up my mind!

Also OT, but regarding loyalty of Newcastle fans, this is overplayed quite alot, there was some difficult times at Newcastle before Kevin Keegan arrived, and much of my generation (born between the late 70s and late 80s) didn't support Newcastle when they first got into football. Most of my friends in Newcastle growing up were Liverpool, Everton or Man Utd fans (before Man Utd's success in the 90s). Some of those stayed loyal, but quite alot switched allegiances back to Newcastle when they became successful during the Keegan years...

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8 hours ago, M_Afro said:

It is racist I’m afraid. What difference does it make that he is black? Why even feel the need to mention it? If my son asked me who Andy Townsend was I wouldn’t say some white bloke who used to play in midfield.

Racism definition: 

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

As I said it would be irrelevant not racist. 

Edited by Vive_La_Villa

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7 hours ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Racism isn't just about intent. It is so ingrained in us white folk that we don't even realise that half the things we say or do, about or to a person of colour is even racist. It doesn't have to be malicious, it just has to 'be'. From there, assuming no malice, your options are open really. 

Learning and evolving is the important part. 

John Barnes talks about this a lot. It doesn't make you a bad person if you hold some subconscious biases. It's society's conditioning to blame, not you.

This misconception of what racism is, is what leads people to be so defensive. When you think racism is a conscious effort to hate others, and you're sure you're not doing so...of course you're going to object to every accusation of racism. 

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7 hours ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Racism isn't just about intent. It is so ingrained in us white folk that we don't even realise that half the things we say or do, about or to a person of colour is even racist. It doesn't have to be malicious, it just has to 'be'. From there, assuming no malice, your options are open really. 

Learning and evolving is the important part. 

Final post on this but as I’ve said in off topic threads. Certain ‘White British’ (hope I can say that) people that I have met are probably the least racist people I have ever met in my life. I don’t think they even realise it. 

Back on topic - hatrick tonight please Tammy.

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1 hour ago, hippo said:

Remember a few years back - Birmingham council renamed christmas 'Wintervall' because somebody though using the word Christmas would offend Muslims - I would argue that it drove more people towards racist tendencies  

It's bullshit though. Remember that crazy time when people used to actually believe the shit they print in the Daily Mail? So happy we've moved on from those days...

FROM THE DAILY MAIL: Winterval was another attempt by the Daily Mail to rile people up.

It took no effort and about four seconds to find out the truth. So if it drove people towards racist tendencies then shame on them and on that manipulative paper.

Edited by praisedmambo
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1 hour ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

If he has a stinker and gets some stick, no doubt it will be because he is black.

Just skimmed through the comments, and if you think a couple of drunk Villa fans in a pub singing a spur of the moment celebratory (Because they said Black, which is already a part of the song they are spinning) chant would sway Tammy to not want to be at the club you are more deluded than I thought.

I also realise a LARGE section of my own black people greatly enjoy being "victims", so get a kick wherever they can find one. Again , it is a disservice to ancestors who ACTUALLY had to go through real things. Obviously racism exists but it the exception, not the rule.  Ffs

Anyway, I'm so tired of this nonsense.

How can it be the exception when it is engrained into our society? Racism is structurally enforced, it goes much deeper than a slur or a misguided chant. 

This isn't about offence, it goes way beyond supposed hurt feelings. We have to call out this stuff no matter how innocuous. It doesn't mean I'm personally offended. I doubt Tammy is losing much sleep over the chant, but isn't it better to nip these biases in the bud at their infancy rather than only do it when something malicious happens?

This is why I dislike gesticulation about PC culture. Apparently you can't talk about these issues unless something serious happens otherwise you are derided for being PC. If I didn't know better I would say this sounds like an effort to prevent real grassroots change (not talking about you btw dude).

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Just peeked in the thread coz I thought he might be injured, only to find a huuuuuggggeee discussion about race.

For a moment I thought WTF are these guys playing at....

... then I thought how it was actually rather brilliant that all these football nuts were having this deep, considered, even handed debate, right in the middle of the build up to this game.

It’s really quite refreshing and a far cry from how we are typically portrayed.

👍

( and it compensates a bit for that appalling song !)

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5 minutes ago, terrytini said:

Just peeked in the thread coz I thought he might be injured, only to find a huuuuuggggeee discussion about race.

For a moment I thought WTF are these guys playing at....

... then I thought how it was actually rather brilliant that all these football nuts were having this deep, considered, even handed debate, right in the middle of the build up to this game.

It’s really quite refreshing and a far cry from how we are typically portrayed.

👍

( and it compensates a bit for that appalling song !)

Haha. Maybe this is how we're all dealing with the nerves 😅

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20 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

How can it be the exception when it is engrained into our society? Racism is structurally enforced, it goes much deeper than a slur or a misguided chant. 

This isn't about offence, it goes way beyond supposed hurt feelings. We have to call out this stuff no matter how innocuous. It doesn't mean I'm personally offended. I doubt Tammy is losing much sleep over the chant, but "isn't it better to nip these biases" in the bud at their infancy rather than only do it when something malicious happens?

This is why I dislike gesticulation about PC culture. Apparently you can't talk about these issues unless something serious happens otherwise you are derided for being PC. If I didn't know better I would say this sounds like an effort to prevent real grassroots change (not talking about you btw dude).

My argument is that there isn't actually any Bias to nip in the bud in the first place."

"Bias: inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair"

Where is that displayed in the "chant/video" we are discussing?

Sorry, but this is a created issue IMO - Naivety due to the "sensitive"climate at worst.

It probably wouldn't have gone further than that group of guys singing it (If it were not recorded and shared) and they probably wouldn't have even remembered it the next day being as pissed as they seemed.

I don't want to live in a world where my white friends are scared to talk to me for fear of being "racist" by accident.

Anyway, how about that game tonight???!!!

 

Edited by JAMAICAN-VILLAN
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9 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

My argument is that there isn't actually any Bias to nip in the bud in the first place."

"Bias: inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair"

Where is that displayed in the "chant/video" we are discussing?

Sorry, but this is a created issue.

It probably wouldn't have gone further than that group of guys singing it (If it were not recorded and shared) and they probably wouldn't have even remembered it the next day being as pissed as they seemed.

I don't want to live in a world where my white friends are scared to talk to me for fear of being "racist" by accident.

Anyway, how about that game tonight???!!!

 

It's a bias when you define one person by their race and not another.

Perfect example, the descriptions we've come up with for our own players: Super Jack for Grealish vs Black Tammy for Abraham.

For Jack, his race would never come into the equation in a million years. It's completely irrelevant. It's accepted. It's normal. But for Tammy apparently, it's his defining characteristic.

Sure it's harmless and innocuous now, but this is the same type of thinking that is also behind more overt instances of racism. What's wrong with calling out the former now while it's still harmless to hopefully prevent the latter?

Anyway, I got a feeling Big Tam is gonna get on the scoresheet again today.

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There is a racism thread in Off Topic. 

We've got a match on tonight, and big (oops, size-ist) Tammy is leading the line. Let's talk football. 

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41 minutes ago, praisedmambo said:

It's bullshit though. Remember that crazy time when people used to actually believe the shit they print in the Daily Mail? So happy we've moved on from those days...

FROM THE DAILY MAIL: Winterval was another attempt by the Daily Mail to rile people up.

It took no effort and about four seconds to find out the truth. So if it drove people towards racist tendencies then shame on them and on that manipulative paper.

I can't tell if you are joking. The Mail is still a printer of vile, unfounded, hate filled lies and fully complicit in the fact we find ourselves mired in the shit swamp of divisive opinion we find ourselves currently. Indirectly, it is they and others like them, who write the stories that make it feel naughty, fun and 'okay again' to sing songs like the one we are discussing.

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2 minutes ago, Lerner's Driver said:

I can't tell if you are joking. The Mail is still a printer of vile, unfounded, hate filled lies and fully complicit in the fact we find ourselves mired in the shit swamp of divisive opinion we find ourselves currently. Indirectly, it is they and others like them, who write the stories that make it feel naughty, fun and 'okay again' to sing songs like the one we are discussing.

I'm joking! And I agree.

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If anything whoever recorded the damn thing should be the one to blame, that person in the pub recording it is a fool. It's created a problem and looks to be a very big problem. It would of all died out in that pub after the singing was finished, blame social media if anything. Yet those people should of stopped the moment they knew they were being recorded but at times people are none the wiser to what's going on and just don't think.

It would of all died out that day and it wouldn't of even been a thing and spread like wildfire. Sometimes people need to be careful in what they film on there phone's, camera's, so on..

I am curious but will we see the song itself banned now, probably not, yet are we all racist now for singing black betty considering where it came from, it's still about a female after all, (below):

(Black Betty" used as an expression for a liquor bottle may ultimately owe its origin to the famous pretty black barmaid who worked at the notorious Tom King's Coffee House in Covent Garden, London, which opened in 1720.)

Edited by Dave-R

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