Tammy Abraham

[lexicon]

1 hour ago, Lerner's Driver said:

The level of debate on Facebook regarding the song is horrifically simplistic in missing the point and wanting to excuse the behaviour, which itself is indicative of why there is a problem in the first place.

Most excusers bang on about there being no intent, which might be a mitigating circumstance, but does not exonerate the perpetrator.

In this modern age, white people shouldn't need reminding (or even having it explained to them for the first time), why identifying anyone primarily by their skin colour can cause offence.

If you do acknowledge that and you mistakenly, or unwittingly sang the song, then recognise your error, apologise and move on.

Do not continue singing the song, even though you now know it's offensive, just because you think it's your human right to express your freedom of speech or you dislike being told what to do.

To carry on defiantly, with full knowledge of the offence, proves you are not only stupid but also a racist.

No excuses. 

 

Stupid people tend to double down in these situations though and defend their actions at all costs rather than admit they there wrong. It's not really worth engaging people who clearly refuse to change their mind; I generally don't persevere with it anymore.

[Keyblade]

15 minutes ago, S-Platt said:

just change the words to Jack and Tammy job done!?

Super Jack/John McGinn vs ...Black Tammy lol

Is that really the best descriptor we could come up for him? 

I don't know if it's racist, that's such a loaded term these days. But it shows that they consider him to be deviant from the norm with regards to race.

You'll never hear a White Conor Hourihane chant for example because being what is normal. Tammy's blackness on the other hand is distinguishing...for better or worse. Since it was sung by fans of his we'd have to assume it's for better...for now.

[Stevo985]

It's unfortunate because I actually like the way Abraham goes so well with Bambalam

 

Could just change it to "Wooah-oh Tammy, Abraham" (replace the word "black" with an extra "oh")
But not sure if the damage has already been done

[Rob182]

15 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

It's unfortunate because I actually like the way Abraham goes so well with Bambalam

 

Could just change it to "Wooah-oh Tammy, Abraham" (replace the word "black" with an extra "oh")
But not sure if the damage has already been done

I imagine it has. I’ve seen a number of people on twitter suggesting ‘big tammy’ would have been better. 

[Stevo985]

7 minutes ago, Rob182 said:

I imagine it has. I’ve seen a number of people on twitter suggesting ‘big tammy’ would have been better. 

Yeah that makes much more sense

[Lerner's Driver]

1 hour ago, Rob182 said:

This should apply to all races, not just whites people. If you disagree with my post then you are stupid and racist.

Technically correct, but also a red herring given most of the singers were white men identifying a black man by his skin colour.

[praisedmambo]

2 hours ago, Rob182 said:

This should apply to all races, not just whites people. If you disagree with my post then you are stupid and racist.

It does apply to all races. And nobody is going to disagree. We obviously have a British perspective on the world, and it's easy for the majority white people to get oversensitive about this stuff, thinking that they're being singled out for particularly hard treatment, but if I was living in China or wherever and people were calling me whitey all the time I'd think those people were falling into some pretty lame tropes that reflect badly on their character. If people were calling me whitey in the UK I'd think the same. The UK is multicultural anyway, and it has been for ages—and it's a direct result of our actions throughout history.

[Lerner's Driver]

2 minutes ago, praisedmambo said:

It does apply to all races. And nobody is going to disagree. We obviously have a British perspective on the world, and it's easy for the majority white people to get oversensitive about this stuff, thinking that they're being singled out for particularly hard treatment, but if I was living in China or wherever and people were calling me whitey all the time I'd think those people were falling into some pretty lame tropes that reflect badly on their character. If people were calling me whitey in the UK I'd think the same. The UK is multicultural anyway, and it has been for ages—and it's a direct result of our actions throughout history.

Well said.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

It's actually not all that difficult to understand that a person of colour in most cases does not want to be defined by or singled out because the colour of their skin, particularly by middle aged white men. It should be relatively easy for people to compute this and drop it. 

[Lerner's Driver]

2 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

It's actually not all that difficult to understand that a person of colour in most cases does not want to be defined by or singled out because the colour of their skin, particularly by middle aged white men. It should be relatively easy for people to compute this and drop it. 

Exactly. Some refuse to 'get it' though. Quite apart from the racism (or otherwise) of the situation in question, it baffles me as to why any Villa fan would think being a black man was something even worth noticing. We have had and continue to have, a whole host of black heroes play for our club and their colour made **** all difference when we celebrated their play.

[Dave-R]

They make it a thing just for bringing it into the light even more, that's the media for you. Best thing to do is do the people for it quietly and ignore it as if it never happened.. More tollerance, notice and more start with it, it catches on quicker than wildfire.

That said I know it's not the 80s and 90s no more, some people from back them still use the term black and it was acceptable then, it isn't now, just like technology some people don't get upto speed with today.

My mother who passed away sadly who had a Black partner, who i still talk to, I've always called him my Black Daddy and he's ok with that and likes it, he's really been the only father figure I had since I watched my dad die at four years old with cancer.

I don't think it should be a thing said in public in case it does offend though, there's always someone it will.

We do live in a day and age where nothing said is right, and to many flock to make it a thing.

 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Dave-R

[Keyblade]

1 hour ago, Rob182 said:

I imagine it has. I’ve seen a number of people on twitter suggesting ‘big tammy’ would have been better. 

Yeah because he's big and that's actually somewhat relevant to football

[Keyblade]

Another problem with is, if God forbid things go sour with Tammy, how quick will those same people be to bring up his blackness with a negative connotation this time, a la our very own John Terry?

[Dr_Pangloss]

I wouldn't say it's racist but it certainly is unnecessary.

[Dr_Pangloss]

3 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

Another problem with is, if God forbid things go sour with Tammy, how quick will those same people be to bring up his blackness with a negative connotation this time, a la our very own John Terry?

I fail to see the correlation.

[chrisvilla4]

Re the chant I'm not sure it's intentually racist but its definitely stupid. As others have said just change the wording as it's a good chant. 

[Keyblade]

2 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

I fail to see the correlation.

The correlation is that race is at the forefront of their mind when it comes to describing Tammy. There were so many adjectives to use to describe him, but they settled on black. Sure everything's peachy right now so it's all pretty harmless, if tone deaf. But if things go bad, that'd likely be the first thing that comes to mind too when it comes to an insult.

Think back to Raheem Sterling at Stamford Bridge. I bet those Chelsea fans love their black players, but when it was an opposing player they hated, the first thing they could think to use as an insult was his race because that's probably the first thing that comes to their mind when they think Raheem Sterling.

It's just a flawed way of thinking. In both instances they're doing the exact same thing, singling him out because of race. One just has a positive connotation and the other a negative. One was widely condemned as racist but this is being argued that it's not. The issue is that his race shouldn't even be a factor. What's it got to do with anything? Whether the person is a hero or an asshole, it's completely irrelevant. 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

14 minutes ago, Dave-R said:

They make it a thing just for bringing it into the light even more, that's the media for you. Best thing to do is do the people for it quietly and ignore it as if it never happened.. More tollerance, notice and more start with it, it catches on quicker than wildfire.

That said I know it's not the 80s and 90s no more, some people from back them still use the term black and it was acceptable then, it isn't now, just like technology some people don't get upto speed with today.

My mother who passed away sadly who had a Black partner, who i still talk to, I've always called him my Black Daddy and he's ok with that and likes it, he's really been the only father figure I had since I watched my dad die at four years old with cancer.

I don't think it should be a thing said in public in case it does offend though, there's always someone it will.

We do live in a day and age where nothing said is right, and to many flock to make it a thing.

 

Who is 'they'? I am annoyed about it to be honest. Not at the media, not at Stan. Not even, really, at the people in the video who clearly require education. I am annoyed at the fans who are completely incapable of stepping back and listening to a person of colour explain why it is unacceptable. 

It has nothing to do with the word black. In a vacuum there is nothing wrong with describing somebody as black. It is the context within which it is used. In the example of the song Tammy is being DEFINED by the colour of his skin, accidentally, innocently or otherwise. It's not that subtle a difference and therein lies the issue. 

With your stepfather you had consent. That is completely different. If Tammy were to come out and say he likes it, then we can talk about that further. I still wouldn't sing it because this isn't just about Tammy, not all person's of colour are the same. An obvious point which shouldn't need saying, but it seems to. However it would at least be conversation worthy, until then your personal story is of absolutely no relevance here. It's the same with Akinfenwa describing himself as a beast. Consent, always seek it first. If there is none, don't even go there. Simple.

We live in a day and age where racial prejudice is unacceptable to many and they feel more and more comfortable calling it out. Finally. It's a start. 

[Dr_Pangloss]

2 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

The correlation is that race is at the forefront of their mind when it comes to describing Tammy. There were so many adjectives to use to describe him, but they settled on black. Sure everything's peachy right now so it's all pretty harmless, if tone deaf. But if things go bad, that'd likely be the first thing that comes to mind too when it comes to an insult.

Think back to Raheem Sterling at Stamford Bridge. I bet those Chelsea fans love their black players, but when it was an opposing player they hated, the first thing they could think to use as an insult was his race because that's probably the first thing that comes to their mind when they think Raheem Sterling.

It's just a flawed way of thinking. In both instances they're doing the exact same thing, singling him out because of race. One just has a positive connotation and the other a negative. One was widely condemned as racist but this is being argued that it's not. The issue is that his race shouldn't even be a factor. What's it got to do with anything? Whether the person is a hero or an asshole, it's completely irrelevant. 

I don't think it's likely at all, maybe I hold our fans in too high a regard but ultimately I see this as a chant intended to be in 'good nature' but is ultimately completely tone def and unnecessary. Big difference between this chant and using racial slurs and/ or the term 'black' to describe Abraham in a negative way. Too much of a leap IMO.

[Keyblade]

1 minute ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

I don't think it's likely at all, maybe I hold our fans in too high a regard but ultimately I see this as a chant intended to be in 'good nature' but is ultimately completely tone def and unnecessary. Big difference between this chant and using racial slurs and/ or the term 'black' to describe Abraham in a negative way. Too much of a leap IMO.

John Terry famously called Anton Ferdinand a black b*st*rd. Black isn't a slur, but it was still racist. 

Whether in insult or praise, it's still ultimately singling out a person's race. The flawed line of thinking is exactly the same. Only the emotions differ.