Anwar El Ghazi

[Keyblade]

5 minutes ago, The Inspiration said:

It’s debatable saying he was just as crucial, because, well... he wasn’t. 

So do you believe Mr Aston Villa Jack Grealish has the personality traits to call out others for being shit? I personally don’t and haven’t seen that once to date which is why I said “don’t say jack”.

I personally feel anwar shouldn’t be such a cupcake but hey ho, each to their own.

just to confirm my initial post had the issue of you using the comparison of ogbonna for mings, hence It was in bold. Horrendous example.

The rest is just conjecture 

I don't know what these players are like for real, it's only conjecture. I'll make it simple for you and say nobody should have done what Mings did. I was only speculating on the kind of player that might have gotten away with that kind of behavior.

The West Ham example was to highlight that Mark Noble, captain, Mr. West Ham might have been that player, while Ogbonna would have likely gotten the headbutt. Not sure what's so off about the analogy, Ogbonna has been at the club a few years now and is one of the established leaders at the club and has captained them this season. Very analogous to Mings/Grealish I would say.

[KenjiOgiwara]

5 hours ago, rodders0223 said:

Mings is the captain, we all know it.

He is the first to give someone a rollocking, first to put his arms around someone who has made a mistake, first to encourage the team following a goal conceded. He might not have the armband but he is the captain.

Thank you. Well said. 

In life you will always meet those who lead by title and those who lead by example. Mings is a leader for sure. 

[The Inspiration]

9 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

I don't know what these players are like for real, it's only conjecture. I'll make it simple for you and say nobody should have done what Mings did. I was only speculating on the kind of player that might have gotten away with that kind of behavior.

The West Ham example was to highlight that Mark Noble, captain, Mr. West Ham might have been that player, while Ogbonna would have likely gotten the headbutt. Not sure what's so off about the analogy, Ogbonna has been at the club a few years now and is one of the established leaders at the club and has captained them this season. Very analogous to Mings/Grealish I would say.

It’s not all about time served mate which you seem keen to highlight often, Terry for us two years ago should show you that.

Its also not about who wears a bastard armband, Gareth Barry was given the arm band from Olof a few years ago as a sweetener to stop him going to Portsmouth with Dirty Harry. This didn’t make Olof less of a leader or reduce his status and the flip side didn’t really make Gareth much more of a leader either.

leaders are born not made, they don’t need appointing to rise to leadership challenges, and quite frankly mings is the ONLY player currently in our squad who fits the bill like it or not. If our team was not named Aston Villa jack wouldn’t be captain, not a dig at him he just wouldn’t. Tyrone would.

We won’t agree on this Ogbonna analogy, no point getting in to it

[Keyblade]

4 minutes ago, The Inspiration said:

It’s not all about time served mate which you seem keen to highlight often, Terry for us two years ago should show you that.

Its also not about who wears a bastard armband, Gareth Barry was given the arm band from Olof a few years ago as a sweetener to stop him going to Portsmouth with Dirty Harry. This didn’t make Olof less of a leader or reduce his status and the flip side didn’t really make Gareth much more of a leader either.

leaders are born not made, they don’t need appointing to rise to leadership challenges, and quite frankly mings is the ONLY player currently in our squad who fits the bill like it or not. If our team was not named Aston Villa jack wouldn’t be captain, not a dig at him he just wouldn’t. Tyrone would.

We won’t agree on this Ogbonna analogy, no point getting in to it

Okay, even if I were to grant you all of this (and I agree with all of it), you're still missing my point. Mings could have been McGrath himself and he would have been wrong. I don't see the point in splitting hairs and arguing semantics on tangential points.

I'm just trying to put myself in AEG's shoes as someone who plays football. He didn't take kindly to having Mings' head in his face like that, making a scene about something that wasn't his fault to begin with, and nor should he have.

His reaction was also poor, but the focus on it and the ignoring of the actions that led to it is ironically exactly the kind of situation that made him do it in the first place (ie: Mings focusing on AEG not getting close to Noble when it was actually Jack who lost him that put Noble in AEG's vicinity in the first place).

[KentVillan]

5 hours ago, Keyblade said:

But yeah as you allude to, it wasn't even El Ghazi's man. So not only was his approach completely wrong, he was getting at the wrong man. I bet he knew Noble wasn't Anwar's man too (why the hell would he be marking a central midfielder?). So many mistakes and wrongdoings on Mings' part leading up to that, but all anyone can talk about is the resulting headbutt.

I'm not 100% sure, because we don't know how they've been drilled in training, but I think you're probably wrong on this.

This is the position when the ball has gone over Taylor's head and Yarmolenko is in possession on the right wing.

The defence can't push any higher because they're level with Yarmolenko. So it's our midfield's job to compress that space and get goalside of the West Ham midfielders. 4-3-3 becomes 4-5-1 in this position, and in a zonal system there's no such thing as "your man". You need to be tactically aware and make the right calls depending on the context.

So the debate is whether it should be Grealish or AEG covering Noble's run. But Noble has clearly moved towards AEG here, and you'd expect AEG to take the responsibility as the closest man, since Mings cannot step out, and Grealish is covering Lanzini (out of shot).

I think what irritated Mings was when Yarmolenko was bringing the ball down, AEG had an opportunity to get goalside of Noble, but instead he jogs back (you can see he's jogging in the photo), and when he realises what Noble's doing and tries to sprint back, it's too late to get goalside.

It's not a lack of effort from AEG, but it is a lack of awareness which could have cost us a goal. A bit unfair to single him out, though, since all of our players make little mistakes like this, and I imagine that's why he reacted so angrily.

[KentVillan]

double post

Edited September 18, 2019 by KentVillan
double post

[Hornso]

9 hours ago, av1 said:

I thought that about the whole squad on Monday. Everyone of them were blowing in the second half.

Listening to the TV coverage of the game the commentators remarked several times how much work Pellegrini had put into West Ham in regards to their fitness and how hard working they were. I'm sure our boys were feeling it.

[Keyblade]

2 hours ago, KentVillan said:

I'm not 100% sure, because we don't know how they've been drilled in training, but I think you're probably wrong on this.

This is the position when the ball has gone over Taylor's head and Yarmolenko is in possession on the right wing.

The defence can't push any higher because they're level with Yarmolenko. So it's our midfield's job to compress that space and get goalside of the West Ham midfielders. 4-3-3 becomes 4-5-1 in this position, and in a zonal system there's no such thing as "your man". You need to be tactically aware and make the right calls depending on the context.

So the debate is whether it should be Grealish or AEG covering Noble's run. But Noble has clearly moved towards AEG here, and you'd expect AEG to take the responsibility as the closest man, since Mings cannot step out, and Grealish is covering Lanzini (out of shot).

I think what irritated Mings was when Yarmolenko was bringing the ball down, AEG had an opportunity to get goalside of Noble, but instead he jogs back (you can see he's jogging in the photo), and when he realises what Noble's doing and tries to sprint back, it's too late to get goalside.

It's not a lack of effort from AEG, but it is a lack of awareness which could have cost us a goal. A bit unfair to single him out, though, since all of our players make little mistakes like this, and I imagine that's why he reacted so angrily.

I'm not going to pretend like I'm privy to tactics or anything so I won't comment on who should have been marking who, though I did see pundits remarking that it was Jack that let Noble go. Then again it was like Owen Hargreaves so I might have been too trusting

I will say though that I agree that it was a lack of awareness on AEG's part, and to his credit, as soon as he realized Noble was goalside of him he busted a gut to get to him. 

You could just tell him to focus, or pay more attention or get his head in the game. Something like:

This is just uncalled for though.

If they weren't wearing the same shirt you'd be forgiven for thinking El Ghazi was a Blues player.

[TRO]

2 hours ago, KentVillan said:

I'm not 100% sure, because we don't know how they've been drilled in training, but I think you're probably wrong on this.

This is the position when the ball has gone over Taylor's head and Yarmolenko is in possession on the right wing.

The defence can't push any higher because they're level with Yarmolenko. So it's our midfield's job to compress that space and get goalside of the West Ham midfielders. 4-3-3 becomes 4-5-1 in this position, and in a zonal system there's no such thing as "your man". You need to be tactically aware and make the right calls depending on the context.

So the debate is whether it should be Grealish or AEG covering Noble's run. But Noble has clearly moved towards AEG here, and you'd expect AEG to take the responsibility as the closest man, since Mings cannot step out, and Grealish is covering Lanzini (out of shot).

I think what irritated Mings was when Yarmolenko was bringing the ball down, AEG had an opportunity to get goalside of Noble, but instead he jogs back (you can see he's jogging in the photo), and when he realises what Noble's doing and tries to sprint back, it's too late to get goalside.

It's not a lack of effort from AEG, but it is a lack of awareness which could have cost us a goal. A bit unfair to single him out, though, since all of our players make little mistakes like this, and I imagine that's why he reacted so angrily.

you are right.....that can be levelled at many of our players during a game....... many of other teams players too.

[The Inspiration]

5 hours ago, Keyblade said:

I'm not going to pretend like I'm privy to tactics or anything so I won't comment on who should have been marking who, though I did see pundits remarking that it was Jack that let Noble go. Then again it was like Owen Hargreaves so I might have been too trusting

I will say though that I agree that it was a lack of awareness on AEG's part, and to his credit, as soon as he realized Noble was goalside of him he busted a gut to get to him. 

You could just tell him to focus, or pay more attention or get his head in the game. Something like:

This is just uncalled for though.

If they weren't wearing the same shirt you'd be forgiven for thinking El Ghazi was a Blues player.

His performances have been of their level tbh, I could understand the confusion

[sidcow]

You might have to watch the game back, it may have been a culmination thing, if Anwar had failed to track back a few times this may just have been the one which broke the camel's back. 

[Taxahunter]

12 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

Thank you. Well said. 

In life you will always meet those who lead by title and those who lead by example. Mings is a leader for sure. 

No, not really. To be a good leader you don't react the way he did and especially not in front of thier teammates.

[KenjiOgiwara]

2 minutes ago, Taxahunter said:

No, not really. To be a good leader you don't react the way he did and especially not in front of thier teammates.

I can only take from this you've never been in the military? 

In fact every testosterone heavy team I've participated in, whether it's military, football or other stuff, you will always have those kinda leaders. You don't get your point across talking like it's a tea party. 

[Taxahunter]

12 hours ago, KentVillan said:

I'm not 100% sure, because we don't know how they've been drilled in training, but I think you're probably wrong on this.

This is the position when the ball has gone over Taylor's head and Yarmolenko is in possession on the right wing.

The defence can't push any higher because they're level with Yarmolenko. So it's our midfield's job to compress that space and get goalside of the West Ham midfielders. 4-3-3 becomes 4-5-1 in this position, and in a zonal system there's no such thing as "your man". You need to be tactically aware and make the right calls depending on the context.

So the debate is whether it should be Grealish or AEG covering Noble's run. But Noble has clearly moved towards AEG here, and you'd expect AEG to take the responsibility as the closest man, since Mings cannot step out, and Grealish is covering Lanzini (out of shot).

I think what irritated Mings was when Yarmolenko was bringing the ball down, AEG had an opportunity to get goalside of Noble, but instead he jogs back (you can see he's jogging in the photo), and when he realises what Noble's doing and tries to sprint back, it's too late to get goalside.

It's not a lack of effort from AEG, but it is a lack of awareness which could have cost us a goal. A bit unfair to single him out, though, since all of our players make little mistakes like this, and I imagine that's why he reacted so angrily.

As Noble is a central midfielder he would still be Grealish, McGinn or nakamba's man. Anwars focus is directed towards the ball and Noble is running from his back in a blind spot. When he would be able to see him, it would already be too late for Anwar to react and catch him. The essential thing in this is communication. We dont know what was said on the field or if anything was said at all, but clearly Jack, should have been tracking Noble or letting Anwar know that he was coming from behind.

[Taxahunter]

3 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

I can only take from this you've never been in the military? 

In fact every testosterone heavy team I've participated in, whether it's military, football or other stuff, you will always have those kinda leaders. You don't get your point across talking like it's a tea party. 

I have actually and several years as a sergent. But if you dont have your men on your side, you'll never win a war, but in reality you can't compare the military, where life could be at stake with leading in a company or being a captain in a football game. and add to that, I have also played football at a fairly high level, and I still don't agree with you.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Taxahunter

[KenjiOgiwara]

That's fair enough. You got to know your audience so to speak, but I just don't see the problem here. If you can't handle a bollocking as a footballer, a team sport, then I'd argue you're in the wrong profession. 

Edited September 19, 2019 by KenjiOgiwara

[Adam2003]

Everyone getting a bit carried away here about wrong and right. There was a spat between two teammates. It happens. We don’t need to get into deep debate about whether it’s good leadership or bad leadership or who has played at what level or who has served in the military. We just need to hope they shook hands after the game and said “sorry about that, you know it’s because I am desperate to win and I know you are as well, let’s go win next week.”

[momo]

First it was bad behavior from Mings, then it was a bad response from AEG. Taking sides is stupid, and if anybody shouted at me like that on the football field, I would almost do what AEG did. You can't be a doormat at this high level. Then you wouldn't have reached this heights. And to think how unison this site was when a former coach was recently let go because he was a hard coach, now some here are saying that AEG should have taking a public bollocking and shut up.

[KentVillan]

1 hour ago, Taxahunter said:

As Noble is a central midfielder he would still be Grealish, McGinn or nakamba's man. Anwars focus is directed towards the ball and Noble is running from his back in a blind spot. When he would be able to see him, it would already be too late for Anwar to react and catch him. The essential thing in this is communication. We dont know what was said on the field or if anything was said at all, but clearly Jack, should have been tracking Noble or letting Anwar know that he was coming from behind.

As I said, we don't know how the players have been drilled defensively, but to confidently state that because Noble is a centre mid he can't be AEG's responsibility here is just nonsense. Football positions are fluid and zonal marking is complex.

[Taxahunter]

18 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

As I said, we don't know how the players have been drilled defensively, but to confidently state that because Noble is a centre mid he can't be AEG's responsibility here is just nonsense. Football positions are fluid and zonal marking is complex.

It really isnt. Noble is in Grealishs eye of sight, moving from his area on the field, therefore he should have followed him or let AEG know that he is coming. Zonal marking is complex, but Im 200% sure if you got a heatmap of Noble, most of his positions would be in the midlle area, making him the responsibility of our 3 man midfield to mark.