John McGinn

[MotoMkali]

On 22/09/2020 at 13:36, avfc1982am said:

I thought he was largely anonymous, however, I thought he came into his own in the last 15 min when gaps began to appear through the centre. He ended the game better than he started I feel.

He looked better because he was forced to play deeper after Davis came on. When he plays as our farthest midfielder forward he acts like a second striker and marks himself out the game by standing on the opponents cb. He doesn't come short or drop deep to help out with bringing the ball forward and he gives himself aonger sprint back to defend it is terrible positioning by him and bad coaching by Smith. I would have given Smith a 10/10 against Sheffield if not for mcginn who in my opinion drops it all the way down to 5 or 6/10

[MotoMkali]

On 22/09/2020 at 19:22, Jas10 said:

Yeah, I liked how he intentionally hesitated or “dummied” the shot then finished it so it wouldn’t be blocked by the defender. He certainly looked the most “at it” at the start of last season and I’m sure he’ll get back to that standard again. Our subsequent losses (tough run of games) and knocked confidence (esp the Liverpool result) really affected us and then we lost John to injury (Mings got injured in the Leicester game too but wasn’t out for too long was he?). Jack really stepped up in McGinn’s absence but imagine the pair of them working in tandem now, both fit and on form (and more used to PL football) and surrounded by better and more in form (Doug) players. Got to get these signings right.

Out until the Norwich game so he missed Southampton and Watford in that run and this is when Southampton were bad so... 

[avfc1982am]

22 minutes ago, MotoMkali said:

He looked better because he was forced to play deeper after Davis came on. When he plays as our farthest midfielder forward he acts like a second striker and marks himself out the game by standing on the opponents cb. He doesn't come short or drop deep to help out with bringing the ball forward and he gives himself aonger sprint back to defend it is terrible positioning by him and bad coaching by Smith. I would have given Smith a 10/10 against Sheffield if not for mcginn who in my opinion drops it all the way down to 5 or 6/10

I cant agree. The reason why McGinn had a better last 15 had nothing to do with his positioning, more the positioning of utd's midfield pushing on. This enabled balls through the middle to become easier to play due to the spaces vacated,  which is what I also feel contributed to his forward passing increasing. With several others, as we could finally break in behind them and down the sides. He was pushed on earlier in the game because utd sat back not because Davis wasn't on. Hence the lack of space etc.

Also how can you say you was going to give Smith a 10 out of 10 and drop it to a 5 or 6 based on McGinns positioning? Then blaming it on bad coaching. We won lol!    

[Trickster]

I think some of the McGinn criticism is a bit over the top and seems to be judged quicker than other players for whatever reason, maybe because he got so much praise before that it's some sort of evening out? I don't know. The argument of Hourihane v McGinn I find especially baffling, McGinn's average game in general play is almost always better than Hourihane's. This is especially shown up when we don't get many dangerous free kick positions for Conor to put one in. McGinn does quite a bit of harrying, breaking up things and quicker passing (a big Hourihane weakness) that isn't usually mentioned as highlights of a game etc, but it's there.

[barry'sboots]

2 minutes ago, Trickster said:

I think some of the McGinn criticism is a bit over the top and seems to be judged quicker than other players for whatever reason, maybe because he got so much praise before that it's some sort of evening out? I don't know. The argument of Hourihane v McGinn I find especially baffling, McGinn's average game in general play is almost always better than Hourihane's. This is especially shown up when we don't get many dangerous free kick positions for Conor to put one in. McGinn does quite a bit of harrying, breaking up things and quicker passing (a big Hourihane weakness) that isn't usually mentioned as highlights of a game etc, but it's there.

I agree, but I would like to see him back on his game as he was in the promotion season and the start of last season before the injury.  I thought he might be there after a pre-season but he still seems a bit off where he was.  A CM three of Dougie L, SJM and Jack would be really strong.  Interesting to compare with, say, Everton with Doucoure - Allan - Rodriguez, although I see the latter played nominally out wide last weekend, which would have a similar balance.

My concern with SJM is that we do not have a replacement for him - no reserve box to box midfielder - except maybe Lansbury, who is just not at the races, and, therefore, he has to play every game which is incredibly hard for someone with his output/work rate and probably why he has picked up injuries over the past couple of seasons.

[MotoMkali]

21 minutes ago, avfc1982am said:

I cant agree. The reason why McGinn had a better last 15 had nothing to do with his positioning, more the positioning of utd's midfield pushing on. This enabled balls through the middle to become easier to play due to the spaces vacated,  which is what I also feel contributed to his forward passing increasing. With several others, as we could finally break in behind them and down the sides. He was pushed on earlier in the game because utd sat back not because Davis wasn't on. Hence the lack of space etc.

Also how can you say you was going to give Smith a 10 out of 10 and drop it to a 5 or 6 based on McGinns positioning? Then blaming it on bad coaching. We won lol!    

I can blame it on Smith playing mcginn out of position as our cam as opposed to our box to box midfielder. He plays hourihane there for some ungodly reason. Hourihane best attributes are in and around the box his shooting, crossing and passing. Whereas mcginns best attributes come from his ability to bring the ball from deep his long passing and and his ability to turn players none of which get showcased when he plays as a cam. 

[barry'sboots]

1 minute ago, MotoMkali said:

I can blame it on Smith playing mcginn out of position as our cam as opposed to our box to box midfielder. He plays hourihane there for some ungodly reason. Hourihane best attributes are in and around the box his shooting, crossing and passing. Whereas mcginns best attributes come from his ability to bring the ball from deep his long passing and and his ability to turn players none of which get showcased when he plays as a cam. 

100% agree.  SJM needs to drive from deep and/or arrive late.  CH can't do either of those but is dangerous in and around the box.

[sharkyvilla]

7 minutes ago, MotoMkali said:

I can blame it on Smith playing mcginn out of position as our cam as opposed to our box to box midfielder. He plays hourihane there for some ungodly reason. Hourihane best attributes are in and around the box his shooting, crossing and passing. Whereas mcginns best attributes come from his ability to bring the ball from deep his long passing and and his ability to turn players none of which get showcased when he plays as a cam. 

I still don't think he is fit enough to do the box to box role and this is the best we can get out of him right now.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

I think you've all (mostly) lost your god damn minds. 

Form is temporary, class is permanent. 

[avfc1982am]

13 minutes ago, MotoMkali said:

I can blame it on Smith playing mcginn out of position as our cam as opposed to our box to box midfielder. He plays hourihane there for some ungodly reason. Hourihane best attributes are in and around the box his shooting, crossing and passing. Whereas mcginns best attributes come from his ability to bring the ball from deep his long passing and and his ability to turn players none of which get showcased when he plays as a cam. 

I'm hearing what your saying but, how could he have played a deeper box to box role earlier when utd were sat back on their 18 yard line for 60min. Now I'm not disagreeing that him and Hourihane have different attributes and their roles are somewhat crossed, but that has zero to do with my original comment regarding him having a better last 15. My original point was more based on the concerns over his fitness not how Smiths playing him. 

[MotoMkali]

3 hours ago, avfc1982am said:

I'm hearing what your saying but, how could he have played a deeper box to box role earlier when utd were sat back on their 18 yard line for 60min. Now I'm not disagreeing that him and Hourihane have different attributes and their roles are somewhat crossed, but that has zero to do with my original comment regarding him having a better last 15. My original point was more based on the concerns over his fitness not how Smiths playing him. 

He could have sat a little bit deeper either on their midfield line or above it and stretched it using runs or making cross field passes. As it is we didn't have the advantage of an extra man because mcginn took himself out of the game by standing on ampadu for 80 minutes. Mcginn could have roamed over the pitch and used his skill to beat a man whenever they pressed so we had one less man for the cross to beat but instead he just let himself get taken out of the game because he either lacked the intelligence or the effort to move and create space for his team.

Everyone knows if a team is playing a rigid back line you have to probe them so they are forced to stretch their defence but instead we were content to just ping crosses into the box that were easily headed away. Hell this is the one game where I would have encouraged mcginn to take his long shots because it would have created a loose ball on the box that watkins might have been able to get to and it would force a midfielder or defender to step out as they can't risk 20 or 30 shots coming into the box no matter how low percentage they are. But mcginn couldn't do any of that because again he was standing on ampadu. Mcginns best moments came when he moved outwide and created an option to his feet. He had a nice little link up with Jack that was u lucky to not result in anything as it forced a 4 on 3 situation but mcginn was content to not do that for the majority of the game. 

[MotoMkali]

3 hours ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

I think you've all (mostly) lost your god damn minds. 

Form is temporary, class is permanent. 

So are you saying that mcginn's form early last season was temporary and he isn't going to replicate it again? Because he has currently played more bad games than good games in the prem and whilst most of them can put down to having knocks and not being fully recovered from injuries his inclusion is hurting the team right now. It would be better for us if we could sell him for 20-30 million and invest that into another midfielder if Smith keeps trying to play him as cam. 

I want him to succeed as much as any villa fan because it means we will be in a much better position but right now either Smith or mcginn is failing to see the situation and it will really hinder us in most games. It is why wingers were our most important signings this season and so we could move jack back into the middle which would force mcginn deeper which would substantially improve our team. 

[MotoMkali]

4 hours ago, Trickster said:

I think some of the McGinn criticism is a bit over the top and seems to be judged quicker than other players for whatever reason, maybe because he got so much praise before that it's some sort of evening out? I don't know. The argument of Hourihane v McGinn I find especially baffling, McGinn's average game in general play is almost always better than Hourihane's. This is especially shown up when we don't get many dangerous free kick positions for Conor to put one in. McGinn does quite a bit of harrying, breaking up things and quicker passing (a big Hourihane weakness) that isn't usually mentioned as highlights of a game etc, but it's there.

No one is saying hourihane is better than mcginn. What we are saying is hourihane is a better CAM than mcginn and mcginn is a better B2B than hourihane which means it makes no sense when mcginn and hourihane are playing in those other positions.

All the attributes you listed are better utilised deeper where they help us break up play and progress the ball upfield quickly which can either lead to overloads or beating a high press. Hourihane is a threat on the edge of the area which forces team to respect him and press out to him when we have the ball this creates more space in the box which gives our strikers easier chances. Instead we play hourihane as a pseudo LM most of the time where he can't shoot. He can cross sure but we already have targett there and neither of them can beat a man anyway so they become incredibly predictable if Jack has roamed off.

McGinn n doesn't even have to improve his game to improve us he just has to drop deeper and we would be twice as effective. This was my main complaint with Smith last season and it looks like it will be my main complaint with him this season. Although substitutions is a close 2nd.

[Trickster]

20 minutes ago, MotoMkali said:

No one is saying hourihane is better than mcginn. What we are saying is hourihane is a better CAM than mcginn and mcginn is a better B2B than hourihane which means it makes no sense when mcginn and hourihane are playing in those other positions.

All the attributes you listed are better utilised deeper where they help us break up play and progress the ball upfield quickly which can either lead to overloads or beating a high press. Hourihane is a threat on the edge of the area which forces team to respect him and press out to him when we have the ball this creates more space in the box which gives our strikers easier chances. Instead we play hourihane as a pseudo LM most of the time where he can't shoot. He can cross sure but we already have targett there and neither of them can beat a man anyway so they become incredibly predictable if Jack has roamed off.

McGinn n doesn't even have to improve his game to improve us he just has to drop deeper and we would be twice as effective. This was my main complaint with Smith last season and it looks like it will be my main complaint with him this season. Although substitutions is a close 2nd.

Thats what not 'all' were saying in fairness, a very specific thing for all to be saying. Hourihane usually plays centre, I wouldn't really call it pseudo LM. Despite his free kicks, he actually isn't that great of a crosser from general play. The one thing that I feel McGinn brings around the box, or even in midfield generally, is urgency. Hourihane will never be consistent threat at CAM because he simply doesn't have this and his foot speed to line up things is frustratingly slow. Someone on here had a very good term for it now that I can't remember.

[Kiwivillan]

6 minutes ago, Trickster said:

Thats what not 'all' were saying in fairness, a very specific thing for all to be saying. Hourihane usually plays centre, I wouldn't really call it pseudo LM. Despite his free kicks, he actually isn't that great of a crosser from general play. The one thing that I feel McGinn brings around the box, or even in midfield generally, is urgency. Hourihane will never be consistent threat at CAM because he simply doesn't have this and his foot speed to line up things is frustratingly slow. Someone on here had a very good term for it now that I can't remember.

Said it time and again he's a flat track bully that scores some good goals when poor teams leave him in acres of space with loads of time to take his shot

[Mjvilla]

4 hours ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

I think you've all (mostly) lost your god damn minds. 

Form is temporary, class is permanent. 

Problem with that statement, however, is we have not seen his class in the prem league to be confident it's just a dip in form/fitness struggle. Plenty of players have been excellent in the championship and struggled with the step up.

Don't get me wrong, he has earnt the right to start, build his fitness and impress and will rightly be given plenty of time to do so.

For me, when we came up he was a guarantee. One of the first names on the teamsheet. Whereas now, I'm not so sure we could say that. If we sign another midfielder, then he will have serious competition. Let's hope that spurs him on, because I don't think there's a genuine villa fan out there's who doesn't want him to hit the very top at this level. 

 

[JamieZ]

That's it! I've finally figured out who John McGinn reminds me of!

[AvonVillain]

On 21/09/2020 at 21:03, AvonVillain said:

The real John McGinn will come good after an injury free run in the team, because he's class.

I'll just leave this here.

[Laughable Chimp]

Super John Mcginn is finally back.

[villalad21]

McIniesta is back?