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John McGinn

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14 hours ago, MotoMkali said:

Plus if I'm being honest mcginn has been a liability late in games and has probably contributed to us losing more points (along with smiths refusal to sub him off) than anyone. Once you get past 60 minutes he is too tired to run so he can't close down anyone or beat his man he is essentially worthless because let's face it aside from his pass against Brighton he isn't great at passing (part of the reason he gets so tired). So he loses the ball and he can't win it back. Especially if it is high up the pitch he struggles to get back and defend for example wolves after playing a hospital ball to Taylor (another example of poor passing) he jogs back as traore effortlessly beats Luiz and straight up stops running 30 yards from goal in a position where if he continued to track back could have easily got between traore and Jimenez and or the goal and made his life at least harder to play the ball.

On top of all this he is positional very poor and when we are attacking it leaves us with a massive hole in the middle of the park because our rcm decided he should play upfront negating his best ability dribbling and drawing fouls in transition. I have only watched 2 games live this season (I have watched all the others on TV or stream) but in those games it was clear to me that we were stuffing on the attack because our players mainly jack weren't getting the support they needed. I watched the Everton game and Burnley game so both alright results however I also think we should have put both games to bed and for me against Everton mcginn and trezeguet were the worst players and whilst against Burnley mcginn was decent I though at times he was crippling the right hand side of the pitch (because he was leaving them isolated from support from the Middle but dragging a centre half over between them and the goal) which is why it is no surprise that both our goals came when mcginn wasn't on the right hand side of the pitch. It left so much more space for guilbert and el ghazi/trez to exploit and create good chances I.e el ghazi goal or trez's cross. 

Now this may seem like I'm bashing him for bashing hims sake and I'm not saying he is crap but the minute the clock turns 70 and mcginn is still on the pitch (and it is close) I generally right off the game as loss this season because we can't keep or win the ball because he cannot close an opponent down and he loses the ball really easily. I think in future games we should play with 2 defensive midfielders with mcginn as one of them in the hopes that he decides to play a little bit deeper and support the rest of our midfielders. On top of that he has had 34 shots and only scored 3 goals a lot of the shots have come from outside the box in alright positions if he hadn't chosen to shoot it is really hurting our chances as well. We are wasting chances in good positions on long shots that either miss or are straight at the keeper. 

IMO...its more to do with the others not contributing enough and leaving the ugly stuff to the likes of John McGinn....its too much.

We need to sign a few more pugnacious /Belligerent types to balance the squad.

Edited by TRO
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1 hour ago, Laughable Chimp said:

 

I disagree. I thought it took awhile for Jack to really get rolling. I distincly remember him losing the ball at the tottenham game and that may have led to us conceding a goal. Yes a lot of what we did went through him but that doesn't necessarily mean he was very good, just that a lot of what we did went through him so anytime a move came off successfully, Jack was involved but if a move failed, Jack was involved as well. It took a few games before he really started flying.

Mcginn is like the opposite. Started really brightly than gradually faded as time went on. Perhaps no one else in the team really benefits more from Jack's presense than Mcginn,

Grealish was fouled by lamela. However the ref didn't give it. Obviously there should have been a call for that. It was one of the reasons why he stopped attempting to take people on earlier in the season.

However to me mcginn hurts most of our moves he rarely moves off the ball unless it is a run in behind he never comes short and positionally he is very poor which costs us as if the ball is on the left or right we have to attempt a relatively tricky path across the pitch to switch rather than playing 2 or 3 short ball if mcginn was in the correct position. I feel like I'm not necessarily explaining myself very well but of all the players who have played every game (when available) for us mcginn has been the worst except for maybe Heaton (I think he has generally been poor for us this year he has made some cracking saves but he seems very hesitant which has cost us points in several games).

Simply put although mcginn is a great player he plays wayy to far upfield and is too static. If he solved these problems I think we would be doing a lot better especially because it means that our build up play would be smoother rather than just passing it to our full backs or wingers every time in easily interceptible (which wolves read and if jimenez had been firing could have put us down 3 or 4 by half). We need to play 4-3-3 not 4-2-4. Either way we mcginn shouldn't be playing as a striker when he is playing as a central midfielder even if he is supposed to be an attacking midfielder. 

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1 hour ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

He was poor in central midfield. I said exactly that a lot on here at the time and got slaughtered for it. He has looked a different player after moving into a new position. 

In my opinion Jack can't play as 1 of 2 central midfielders plus we weren't playing nakamba at that time either. Mcginn wasn't playing as a central midfielder and if you watch the games he was almost always standing on the oppositions last man which would explain why Jack was so isolated in those games. 

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38 minutes ago, TRO said:

IMO...its more to do with the others not contributing enough and leaving the ugly stuff to the likes of John McGinn....its too much.

We need to sign a few more pugnacious /Belligerent types to balance the squad.

Very funny. In case you haven't noticed nakamba cleans up the mistakes and whilst yes mcginn has to defend if he isn't doing that what is the point in playing him at that point he is just a worse hourihane because he can't take great set pieces takes many ill advised shots and is much worse at passing especially picking out quality long balls like hourihane did for both el ghazi goals in the playoff final (great ball to adomah pass back to elmo great cross) and el ghazi goal against Burnley (great long ball to Gilbert meh Cross excellent finish). 

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28 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I think he needs to learn how to pace himself so he can be effective for 90 minutes rather than 70.

Or instead of hamstringing himself we can do several things to mitigate his flaws.

1)keep the ball better through off the ball movement as it stands we are a very static team especially mcginn. Whilst this may seem like more work jogging off the ball is easier than sprinting to close someone down or sprinting to get back. Our best passages of play this season have involved good off the ball movement like both of Jack's goals. El ghazi and Wesley spread out and directly across the back for draggin them back freeing space for them to run into Wesley making a run in behind so Jack can find an easy 1 2 with el ghazi to create time for a pretty finish against Norwich. 

2)sub him off earlier- we are struggling to keep the ball late so we should bring on either Luiz or hourihane who are both good passers of the ball so we are little more comfortable in possession so we aren't stuck at the back constantly pressing which again is tiring.

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15 hours ago, MotoMkali said:

Or instead of hamstringing himself we can do several things to mitigate his flaws.

1)keep the ball better through off the ball movement as it stands we are a very static team especially mcginn. Whilst this may seem like more work jogging off the ball is easier than sprinting to close someone down or sprinting to get back. Our best passages of play this season have involved good off the ball movement like both of Jack's goals. El ghazi and Wesley spread out and directly across the back for draggin them back freeing space for them to run into Wesley making a run in behind so Jack can find an easy 1 2 with el ghazi to create time for a pretty finish against Norwich. 

Superb post. Dean’s system, and McGinn’s place in it, rely on movement off the ball

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21 hours ago, MotoMkali said:

Very funny. In case you haven't noticed nakamba cleans up the mistakes and whilst yes mcginn has to defend if he isn't doing that what is the point in playing him at that point he is just a worse hourihane because he can't take great set pieces takes many ill advised shots and is much worse at passing especially picking out quality long balls like hourihane did for both el ghazi goals in the playoff final (great ball to adomah pass back to elmo great cross) and el ghazi goal against Burnley (great long ball to Gilbert meh Cross excellent finish). 

I have noticed Nakamba......but equally maybe you have noticed that other teams, nearly all their players get after their opposite number....they hunt in packs as opposed to us relying on individuals.

My point is not enough of ours are "at it".....they just wait for the champagne pass.

Edited by TRO
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We are too lightweight in midfield.

We certainly need to add more steel. Nakamba is fine. But Hourihane/Luiz/Lansbury/McGinn doesn't work. They are all too physically weak. Much too easy to get past our midfield.

 

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Think it's more of an issue of our front 3 (when Grealish isn't playing) are not good enough at trapping and keeping the ball.

 

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Is it wrong to think that McGinn might just be one of those 'plays really well running dynamically but only kind of in straight lines' individuals?  Like cascading beads of water on a tilted surface.  Like a starved, slightly mad greyhound? 

One of the things that makes Jack so good is how light-footedly multi-dimensional his play is.  The pitch seems a big, juicy place as he twists and turns and bends it to his will.  An unfair comparison sure, but is McGinn too direct, metaphorically bringing a sledgehammer to a knife fight?  Or do we, perhaps, need that sledgehammer?  I think you'd want, in McGinn's position, either a slightly silkier player, with more cultured feet and the ability to expand our play, or a pushy terrier, a nastier player that gets in opponent's faces.  McGinn's sudden spurts of inspiration, literal and otherwise, are brilliant, and yet, these dramatic contributions may overshadow his limitations.  Firstly, so much of the modern game is one of attrition and concentration and I'm unsure McGinn is either quick of feet or mind enough to exploit or create those telling moments of penetration.  And secondly, he does have a sort of 'Leeroy Jenkins' headless heroic chicken quality like a boxer swinging endless powder-puff haymakers that leave little impact.  Sometimes less is, y'know, more.

I feel mean now.  And I'm very possibly completely incorrect.  I'm almost certain though that there isn't any real alternative.

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2 hours ago, TRO said:

I have noticed Nakamba......but equally maybe you have noticed that other teams, nearly all their players get after their opposite number....they hunt in packs as opposed to us relying on individuals.

My point is not enough of ours are "at it".....they just wait for the champagne pass.

You are right. We never press as a team it makes it very easy to pass around the player who has gone to win the ball. 

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1 hour ago, MotoMkali said:

You are right. We never press as a team it makes it very easy to pass around the player who has gone to win the ball. 

absolutely spot on.

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11 hours ago, TRO said:

I have noticed Nakamba......but equally maybe you have noticed that other teams, nearly all their players get after their opposite number....they hunt in packs as opposed to us relying on individuals.

My point is not enough of ours are "at it".....they just wait for the champagne pass.

Spot on. I would love to see more of an active press that teams like Liverpool do so well. Force errors from the opposition and punish.

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Tin hat on.

Anyone think McGinn might like a bevy or three to many? I remember seeing a lot of of his Instagram posts with him drinking. Thats not real evidence at all, but it would explain his conditioning and his tiring towards the end of games.

Maybe he's got away with his natural athleticism up until now but the PL is the elite of the elite. Also look at his physique compared to Jack.

I may be completely wrong obviously and loved what he did and how he played for us last season. Would just love for him to push on to the next level and be even better.

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19 hours ago, TRO said:

I have noticed Nakamba......but equally maybe you have noticed that other teams, nearly all their players get after their opposite number....they hunt in packs as opposed to us relying on individuals.

My point is not enough of ours are "at it".....they just wait for the champagne pass.

I have thought this also.

I saw a clip of Wesley running back and forth chasing Liverpool defenders, and the commentators were praising him for chasing.

Personally i thought what a terrible waste of energy, as at the time literally no-one else was pressing and they were jist passing around him and he was running back and forth, which effectively makes it pointless.

As you said, they need to hunt/press in packs, not individually.

Hopefully it's all part of the development of the team and individuals, because that kind of solo pressing isn't at all impressive, new to do it in groups to be effective.

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John McGinn definitely shines more when playing alongside Jack Grealish. They clearly work together and are switched on to each others game. However, we need to remember that Luiz and Nakamba are both new to the team/club and things are still clicking into place. 

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5 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

Tin hat on.

Anyone think McGinn might like a bevy or three to many? I remember seeing a lot of of his Instagram posts with him drinking. Thats not real evidence at all, but it would explain his conditioning and his tiring towards the end of games.

Maybe he's got away with his natural athleticism up until now but the PL is the elite of the elite. Also look at his physique compared to Jack.

I may be completely wrong obviously and loved what he did and how he played for us last season. Would just love for him to push on to the next level and be even better.

I've speculated the same. Not a lot of evidence but it's a suspicion I have. 

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5 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

Tin hat on.

Anyone think McGinn might like a bevy or three to many? I remember seeing a lot of of his Instagram posts with him drinking. Thats not real evidence at all, but it would explain his conditioning and his tiring towards the end of games.

Maybe he's got away with his natural athleticism up until now but the PL is the elite of the elite. Also look at his physique compared to Jack.

I may be completely wrong obviously and loved what he did and how he played for us last season. Would just love for him to push on to the next level and be even better.

Nah the club wouldn’t allow it surely.  I think he just needs to work on his fitness so it’s Premier League standard. As do many of the players. 
 

edit: I do kind of see what you mean though. He has everything as a player and the potential to really push on.

Edited by Vive_La_Villa
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It's not really true this "us not pressing" story is it? We definately do it. It just seems you expect us to do it for 90 minutes against far superior opposition. 

We probably could do it better, but the notion we don't is a bit ott. 

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