Vegetarianism/Veganism

[Davkaus]

Just now, Wainy316 said:

Are vegans against breast feeding?

Not as a rule.  

[Wainy316]

Yeah I'm probably being a bit facetious but technically it's food consumed from an animal.

[MrDuck]

I've been vegetarian nearly 20 years now. When I made the change, the improvement in my health was dramatic.

Couldn't be vegan though, because cheese. But I feel bad about that, as the treatment of animals in the dairy industry is nearly as awful as in the meat industry.

[Rodders]

1 minute ago, Stevo985 said:

I mean there will always be the extremes in these groups that think stuff like that.But tarring all vegans with that brush is pretty harsh.

Most just don't believe that we should use animal products at all and there are some pretty compelling arguments as to why.

The dairy think for example is due to a hell of a lot of cruelty in the dairy farm industry (and I have family who own dairy farms so it's hard for me to criticise). I'm sure if everyone had their own cow who they took care of and got milk from themselves then (most) vegans wouldn't care so much. But it's not the case.

I did try to emphasise the "some" bit and I am probably guilty of extrapolating too broadly from those who shout loudest etc.

I don't like unnecessary cruelty, but the pragmatist in me always goes " humans first." I'd much rather cure cancers than save a few mice. Stuff like cosmetic testing, no brainer - **** those people, etc.  If we can develop better alternatives without needing to do that then great, but then what do you do with all the undead animals?  I always think there'd be more disease and far more overcrowding.

I know I come across as a bit dismissive, but I just think we have far greater problems to sort out first.

[Davkaus]

1 minute ago, Rodders said:

It's always been done?

Ok. So has all kinds of shit that we probably shouldn't keep doing.

Quote

Cows don't give a shit?

The calves definitely do. They get taken from their mother after about a day, then the male ones tend to go and get turned in to veal. 

The cows probably don't care for being slaughtered at 4/5 as soon as their milk production drops, when they naturally live to 20+, either.

Want to talk about eggs next?  

[Stevo985]

2 minutes ago, Rodders said:

I did try to emphasise the "some" bit and I am probably guilty of extrapolating too broadly from those who shout loudest etc.

I don't like unnecessary cruelty, but the pragmatist in me always goes " humans first." I'd much rather cure cancers than save a few mice. Stuff like cosmetic testing, no brainer - **** those people, etc.  If we can develop better alternatives without needing to do that then great, but then what do you do with all the undead animals?  I always think there'd be more disease and far more overcrowding.

I know I come across as a bit dismissive, but I just think we have far greater problems to sort out first.

I don't think it's a matter of only being able to sort out one problem at a time  

We don't need to dismiss animal cruelty because they haven't cured cancer yet. It can be done simultaneously

[Davkaus]

2 minutes ago, Rodders said:

 

 but then what do you do with all the undead animals?  I always think there'd be more disease and far more overcrowding.

 

...We'd...breed less of them? There's a huge amount of cows and chickens because it's convenient for us. We wouldn't keep breeding the bloody things if we weren't eating them. 

Cows weren't overrunning the planet before industrial farming came about.

[Wainy316]

Away from ethics for a second but people are citing health benefits.  However to my understanding  white meat is pretty healthy if cooked right and also serves as the best source of protein.

We've also been told forever how healthy fish is too, so do the health benefits only really relate to cutting out red meat?

[mjmooney]

19 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

theres 2 things for me

1 - fake meat is a no no, really dont like quorn, the texture more than the taste, i would rather substitute it for something like halloumi

2 - english cuisine is shit for it IMO but you can get away with it if you eat foreign foods, curries and chinese being the easiest but if i was to get in to being a veggie properly i think middle eastern and north african would be the way to go

Another reason it wouldn't work for me - I'm really not into those cuisines. Dressing up food I don't like with spices I don't like makes it worse, not better. Spinach curry is my very worst nightmare. 

Mixed grill FTW. 

Edited May 29, 2018 by mjmooney

[Stevo985]

4 minutes ago, Wainy316 said:

Yeah I'm probably being a bit facetious but technically it's food consumed from an animal.

I think the difference is we choose to breastfeed our young. Just as vegans don't have an issue with cows feeding their young or any other mammal for that matter.

Cows have no choice in us taking their milk, and the way they're treated as a result.

[Rodders]

4 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

Ok. So has all kinds of shit that we probably shouldn't keep doing.

The calves definitely do. They get taken from their mother after about a day, then the male ones tend to go and get turned in to veal. 

The cows probably don't care for being slaughtered at 4/5 as soon as their milk production drops, when they naturally live to 20+, either.

Want to talk about eggs next?  

 

2 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

I don't think it's a matter of only being able to sort out one problem at a time  

We don't need to dismiss animal cruelty because they haven't cured cancer yet. It can be done simultaneously

 

I'll be honest, I have absolutely no good responses to either of those points, and frankly its one reason why I'd be reluctant to watch those documentaries. Food is a pleasure, making my dinner times feel guiltily miserable, as I eat some lettuce and lentl soup is something I don't have energy to remotely consider.

 

Although the cancer point was more about, I have no issue with using animals in medical testing to help develop answers to stuff like alzheimers etc. That just seems like good old fashioned self-preservation.

[Stevo985]

2 minutes ago, Rodders said:

 

 

I'll be honest, I have absolutely no good responses to either of those points, and frankly its one reason why I'd be reluctant to watch those documentaries. Food is a pleasure, making my dinner times feel guiltily miserable, as I eat some lettuce and lentl soup is something I don't have energy to remotely consider.

Yeah this was my thinking for a long time.

But I guess once you know, you know.

[a m ole]

If you think you like meat too much, limit it to the actual good stuff. Cut out the grim ham sandwiches, cold dry chicken in package lunches, watery mince from the supermarket, reformed nuggets and so on. Have a steak every now and then, enjoy a Sunday roast. Be more vigilant about where your meat is from and how it's treated. Be 'Flexitarian'. Reduce your impact.

A good read if the meat industry is 'out of sight out of mind' for anyone.

"I don't like vegetables" just sounds like "I decided I didn't like them as a child and have never had that challenged" to me - no offence gentlemen . There's plenty of information out there how to cook nice meals, but it does require a more open mind and willingness to change habits. I find it harder to make nice vegan meals which is why I'm currently veggie, but I am trying.

My angle is about reducing environmental impact and animal suffering, I don't object to there being some kind of highly regulated meat and dairy industry... problem with that is it would require the whole country/world to reduce their consumption dramatically.

[Chindie]

I wouldn't be either vegetarian or vegan.

I don't eat meat every day, and never have. As a kid every week had at least 1 'something on toast' night, for years my lunch was completely without meat. I could fairly easily reduce my current consumption even further. I don't eat much red meat as it is anyway. And I have sympathy for the need to reduce meat consumption for the environments sake

But I do like to eat meat (mostly - I don't eat lamb), my favourite foods are meat based, and I like animal products. I have absolutely no issue with the fact animals are killed to provide that food for me, or exploited. I've watched animals slaughtered and understand the process, and do not have a disconnect between the chicken in my fridge and how it got there. I do want that process to be as 'humane' as possible, given the chance I was would ban slaughtering methods that are unnecessarily cruel, and heavily fine businesses that do not maintain strict adherence to best practice for the animals welfare.

But ultimately I'm fine with animals being killed for my benefit. I can understand people not being ok with that, but I am.

[Davkaus]

9 minutes ago, Rodders said:

Food is a pleasure, making my dinner times feel guiltily miserable, as I eat some lettuce and lentl soup is something I don't have energy to remotely consider.

This is not what vegans eat. Obviously my diet is pretty much entirely plant based, but **** eating salad.

Good food and good beer is something that gets me through the day. Giving up meat doesn't mean eating rabbit food and wearing sandals.

Hobnobs are a vegan food. Just throwing that out there.  

 

[a m ole]

6 minutes ago, Chindie said:

given the chance I was would ban slaughtering methods that are unnecessarily cruel, and heavily fine businesses that do not maintain strict adherence to best practice for the animals welfare.

 

A lot of the issue is that even current rules are unenforced and brazenly ignored.

[Stevo985]

3 minutes ago, a m ole said:

A lot of the issue is that even current rules are unenforced and brazenly ignored.

I read an article on how Brexit could negatively effect the meat industry. it was quite scary to be honest.

(in short because we'd have to increase meat imports from the US and their food standards are appalling compared to ours, so we'd probably have to lower ours as a result)

[Chindie]

3 minutes ago, a m ole said:

A lot of the issue is that even current rules are unenforced and brazenly ignored.

Hence why I would advocate improvement in regulation. Greater oversight, greater legislation, etc etc.

[MrDuck]

31 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

Want to talk about eggs next?  

I've got my own chickens now. Given a home after the battery farm discarded them, still plenty of eggs left in them, just not enough to be a "profitable product". So now they're free range - frankly they live a life of utter luxury by chicken standards. And the eggs they produce are way  better than the supermarket free range ones I can buy. On another note, they're very clearly quite smart, emotional and sentient beings. They love their cuddles from the kids!

Although jeez, they don't half produce some poo.

[Davkaus]

I thought about it, but any good deed I try to do by rescuing chickens will be quickly undone when my cat tries to hunt them.