bickster Posted May 13, 2018 Moderator Share Posted May 13, 2018 55 minutes ago, snowychap said: Is there not a thread for the standard advocacy for the policies of the state of Israel? No that's why we're debating it in the thread for the country they annexed by stealth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post El Zen Posted May 13, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted May 13, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, Glarmorgan said: 1. You are right. I elaborated a bit more on a different reply. With you permission - I will paste it here There are no 2nd class citizens here. Really not. I can start with throwing facts - there are almost 20 non-Jewish parliament members, out of 120. There are about 60 Arab judges, one of them is in the supreme court. There are no restrictions no the Arab population - an Arab can be a doctor, a lawyer, a teacher, a policeman, whatever you'd like. I work in the city of Ramla. Ramla is a city with a mixture of Arab and Jewish population. There are Arab students in the school I teach in. They are not treated any differently than the Jewish pupils. Both "sets" of pupils hang out together and form a regular friendly relationship. This is not something I "read" or "heard of". This is something from my day to day life. In the past I played football for a team called "Beitar Oranit". 5th division - a crappy team (as I am a crappy left back), but which combined players from Oranit (a Jewish town) and Kefar Kasem (an Arabic town, adjacent to Oranit). The gaffer was Arabic and we player in Kefar Kasem. As I always say - there are always things to improve, but all in all, I think that Arab minority in Israel (just as other minorities) enjoys free life. There are almost no things holding them back from achieving anything they would like. Internal surveys, just as figures and numbers, show that the younger generation is trying to blend in, taking part in community civil service (instead of drafting. Still, they can draft to the IDF if they wish to) and most of the appreciate the benefits of living in Israel, in complete contrast to the other Arabs, throughout the middle east. 2. I completely agree. If publications are right, both Ehud Barak and Ehud Olmert, former prime ministers of Israel, offered the Palestinians about 97% of the occupied territories, to establish their Palestinian state on. If these numbers are right (and I see no reason to think they are not) - I don't think Israel can make any further move towards our "discomfort" zone. Olmert even agreed on turning Jerusalem into in international city, as a part of this agreement. I have to be honest and say that it's unlikely the Israeli public would have agreed to that, but it didn't come to this, as Abbas rejected it on the spot. You can google this up. It's not hard to find. Even in "The Guardian"'s website and "The Guardian is not a pro-Israeli newspaper. You cannot make peace with one side asking things and in return all they offer is to "accept our existence in the 1948 borders", and I won't even start into getting into the complete refusal of all solutions for the Right of Return. As long as this demand exists - nothing can be achieved .No one will accept it. No one will accept tens of thousands of Palestinians getting into Israel. I hope this clarified my opinion up a bit. 1. Yeah, I read all of that, and all it proves, if anything at all, is that not all Palestinians living in the State of Israel are treated like crap. Which is a start, I guess, but it sure as heck isn’t the same as anything resembling real equality. In fact, it could reasonably be argued that true equality is impossible in a state formed and founded on the, again, explicit predominance of one etno-relgious group over another, especially given the circumstances under which this predominance was established, i.e. by force. 2. You say you agree completely, but you didn’t really live up to that in what followed. You didn’t answer any of my questions, either. Further, the sheer arrogance in your post is mind-numbing. You present the ‘97 per cent of all occupied land’ offer as if it’s generous. At the very least, from a Palestinian perspective, it is 3 ppts shy of being even remotely fair. And when you talk about the ‘tens of thousands of Palestinians getting into Israel’ you are, lest you forget, talking about people whose families were forcibly removed from their homes. I accept that facts on the ground dictate what is possible, and that any agreement must be ultimately less than what is objectively fair for the Palestinian people, but if you truly favour a peaceful outcome, at least have the decency to acknowledge their grievances. Edited May 13, 2018 by Michelsen 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 Posted this in the Game's gone thread as well. Quote Israeli soccer team Beitar Jerusalem announced on Sunday that it has decided to add American President Donald Trump's name to the team's name to honor the US President for moving the American Embassy to Jerusalem. "The chairmen of the club, the owner Eli Tabib and the executive manager Eli Ohana have decided to add to the club's title the name of the American President who made history, and from now on will be called Beitar Trump Jerusalem. We have the greatest love for the president, and we will win," read the statement. "For 70 years, Jerusalem has been awaiting international recognition, until President Donald Trump, in a courageous move, recognized Jerusalem as the eternal capital of Israel. President Trump has shown courage and true love of the Israeli people and their capital, and these days other countries are following his lead in giving Jerusalem its rightful status." "The football club Beitar Jerusalem, one of the most prominent symbols of the city, is happy to honor the president for his love and support with a gesture of our own." Despite Beitar's announcement to officially change the club's name, it will require approval from the Israel Football Association, a process which is far from straightforward. In addition, Donald Trump has been a registered trademark in Israel since 2008, and should Beitar try to add it to its name, it may be sued, as it hasn't received permission to use it. https://www.jpost.com/OMG/Israeli-soccer-team-to-add-Trump-to-their-name-to-honor-US-president-556280 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choffer Posted May 14, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted May 14, 2018 I used to have an FC Beitar shirt. It's was a truly beautiful thing - black with gold piping. Then I read a bit about La Familia and the clubs somewhat laissez faire attitude towards racism. I don't wear that shirt any more. (Appreciate I'm adding nothing to the conversation here). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 As expected the death toll is rising after the US opened their embassy in Jerusalem with 5 protesters dead so far and more than 20 injured after Israeli army opened fire on them. Among the dead a 14 y.o Palestinian girl. As Propagandhi wrote: Take a look at your promised land, your deed is that gun in your hand... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glarmorgan Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 On 13/05/2018 at 13:16, momo said: bla bla bla Stop washing away crimes against humanity. There is only one fact, and that is not up for discussion. Btw, how about giving all Palestinians and those who call themselves israelis equal rights? You wont, because that will ruin the racist state built on the dead bodies of Palestinian. No, you cry crocodile tears when defenseless people fight against oppression, then you go and kill some thousand kids, and excuse it by calling them Hamas kids. When you have no valid arguments you bring up lies and insults. That's reasonable enough, but it does not make it truth. The Palestinians in the West Bank will have full civil rights in their Palestinian state, when they will decide they are ready to make necessary adjustments in their perception of reality, and accept Israel is here to stay. When they'll make that step - they'll have their own country. The Palestinians in Gaza have their state. No Israeli soldiers, no settlement. Just them and themselves. It seems it's working just great for them. Fundamental Islam makes a hell of a place to live in. Israel is here to stay. Israel was here to stay in 48, when the Arabs decided to push us back. Yep, the same Arabs who cooperated with the Nazi regime. I guess the poor sods were misunderstood. They just wanted peace and there was not better option for peace than Hitler. When they decided to attack - they brought up their own demise. Just as they are doing today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post chrisp65 Posted May 14, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted May 14, 2018 For someone that didn't want sweeping offensive generalisations of all Israeli's, wow. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 5 minutes ago, Glarmorgan said: When you have no valid arguments you bring up lies and insults. That's reasonable enough, but it does not make it truth. The Palestinians in the West Bank will have full civil rights in their Palestinian state, when they will decide they are ready to make necessary adjustments in their perception of reality, and accept Israel is here to stay. When they'll make that step - they'll have their own country. The Palestinians in Gaza have their state. No Israeli soldiers, no settlement. Just them and themselves. It seems it's working just great for them. Fundamental Islam makes a hell of a place to live in. Israel is here to stay. Israel was here to stay in 48, when the Arabs decided to push us back. Yep, the same Arabs who cooperated with the Nazi regime. I guess the poor sods were misunderstood. They just wanted peace and there was not better option for peace than Hitler. When they decided to attack - they brought up their own demise. Just as they are doing today. Well Israel supported the Apartheid regime in South Africa and traded guns for diamonds so let's not make out like they were saints. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glarmorgan Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 16 hours ago, Michelsen said: 1. Yeah, I read all of that, and all it proves, if anything at all, is that not all Palestinians living in the State of Israel are treated like crap. Which is a start, I guess, but it sure as heck isn’t the same as anything resembling real equality. In fact, it could reasonably be argued that true equality is impossible in a state formed and founded on the, again, explicit predominance of one etno-relgious group over another, especially given the circumstances under which this predominance was established, i.e. by force. 2. You say you agree completely, but you didn’t really live up to that in what followed. You didn’t answer any of my questions, either. Further, the sheer arrogance in your post is mind-numbing. You present the ‘97 per cent of all occupied land’ offer as if it’s generous. At the very least, from a Palestinian perspective, it is 3 ppts shy of being even remotely fair. And when you talk about the ‘tens of thousands of Palestinians getting into Israel’ you are, lest you forget, talking about people whose families were forcibly removed from their homes. I accept that facts on the ground dictate what is possible, and that any agreement must be ultimately less than what is objectively fair for the Palestinian people, but if you truly favour a peaceful outcome, at least have the decency to acknowledge their grievances. 1. The Israeli Arabs are equal and have equal rights as I have. Well, almost. The difference is that since Israel is the home of the Jewish people - Jews get automatic citizenship, while non-Jews are not. That's the main difference. Other than that - the Jews and the Arabs abide to the same set of laws. It's not they are not treated like crap. They are equal citizens, not less than I am. By the way, a couple of years back, as a part of a possible arrangement, someone (I think it was Avigdor Liberman) brought up the idea of an exchange - Israel will swap the settlements in the west bank with the Arab cities in Wadi Ara (Um El Fahm, is one of them). No one will move - no deportation or bulldozing houses. The Arabs fiercely objected to that. The Israeli Arabs. Israel is the home of the Jewish people. I would be more than happy if everyone in the world was to live happily ever after, with open borders and friendship all over the place. But things do not work this way, especially not here. I Jewish, but I am not religious. I am secular - but not one in human history, someone forgave a Jew just because he was secular. Jews were and are targeted regardless of their level of belief and history taught everyone that in case of need - no one comes to the aid of the Jews. No one. So yes, we have to have a state where we can defend and hold our own. It's not nice, but there is no other options. 2. Look, this is not a computer game. There is a reality here and you have to take it under consideration. First of all - the Palestinians are the ONLY refugee group whose refugee rights pass to the kids of the refugee or even his grandchildren. This is a very unique state of refuge and the goal for this was to preserve their demands to return here. I won't get into that "forcibly removed". I do advise that you'll see the patterns of behavior the local Arab population had throughout the first half of the 20th century. Many of them were used to leave for a couple of weeks or month, till the hostilities were concluded and then came back. This time - many of them had nowhere to come back, as a new state was reformed. This is only one things. As I said in another discussion, no one forced them to attack Israel on 1948, but upon attacking - they has to suffer the consequences of losing. I acknowledge their grievances and I fully understand their desires. I really do. At the same time I say these desires cannot be fulfilled, so they have to make a decision - whether they are trying to force this agreement on Israel (which doesn't work too good for them), or forfeiting some of their "righteous" claims for the bigger picture - hence, establishing the Palestinians state. Currently they prefer not to have a state rather than forming it on 97% of the land. If that it reasonable or not - everyone of us can come to his own conclusions. I am not a young boy. I will be 43 years old in a couple of weeks. I am not a hot headed right wing fascist nor a kid who doesn't know what life is really about. As long as extreme demands are made - we will never come to and agreement. When the Hammas, in this very moment, calls for a march "to return to Jaffa and Haifa" - an agreement cannot be made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glarmorgan Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, sne said: Well Israel supported the Apartheid regime in South Africa and traded guns for diamonds so let's not make out like they were saints. Never claimed we are or were saints. I think that we're much less of a demon than people are made to think. That's all. Also - Israel dealt with the Apartheid regime as a way to develop our "alleged" nuclear arsenal, which was imperative for our survival at the time. The Mufti of Jerusalem cooperated with Hitler as he hoped the Nazis will help him out with that tiny Jewish problem in the Middle East. Many Muslim Bosnian soldiers answered the Mufti's call and joined the Wehrmacht to fight against evil empires such as Great Britain and The United States. Edited May 14, 2018 by Glarmorgan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glarmorgan Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 35 minutes ago, choffer said: I used to have an FC Beitar shirt. It's was a truly beautiful thing - black with gold piping. Then I read a bit about La Familia and the clubs somewhat laissez faire attitude towards racism. I don't wear that shirt any more. (Appreciate I'm adding nothing to the conversation here). Throw it away. This teams turned into a horrible thing in the past decade or so. La Familia is a terrorist group, from my point of view. The problem is when the government tried to rip into Beiter, FIFA (or was it UEFA?) threatened to kick us out from international competitions. Horrible team. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glarmorgan Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 13 hours ago, sne said: Posted this in the Game's gone thread as well. https://www.jpost.com/OMG/Israeli-soccer-team-to-add-Trump-to-their-name-to-honor-US-president-556280 Made them a laughing stock here Their president is a convicted felon who runs the club like her's running a local grocery story. The gaffer was getting SMS messaged ordering him who to put in the line up and who to substitute and when. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 12 minutes ago, Glarmorgan said: Jews were and are targeted regardless of their level of belief and history taught everyone that in case of need - no one comes to the aid of the Jews. No one. So its Jews against the world whatever happens? Is that really what you, as someone who claims to be a secular, moderate Jewish citizen of Israel, feels? As long as extreme positions are held, you will indeed never come to any agreement. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 18 dead and 500 injured now. No doubt the powers that be (on both sides) will get their new intifada and thousand upon thousand of Palestinians will die. Bring on the peace price for Trump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted May 14, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted May 14, 2018 22 minutes ago, sne said: 18 dead and 500 injured now. No doubt the powers that be (on both sides) will get their new intifada and thousand upon thousand of Palestinians will die. Bring on the peace price for Trump. I blame that fat lass on Eurovision. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, mjmooney said: I blame that fat lass on Eurovision. Really hope Sweden and other countries boycott next years final, but of course they won't. Just like they did not boycott the final in Azerbaijan. Edited May 14, 2018 by sne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momo Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 3 hours ago, Glarmorgan said: When you have no valid arguments you bring up lies and insults. That's reasonable enough, but it does not make it truth. The Palestinians in the West Bank will have full civil rights in their Palestinian state, when they will decide they are ready to make necessary adjustments in their perception of reality, and accept Israel is here to stay. When they'll make that step - they'll have their own country. The Palestinians in Gaza have their state. No Israeli soldiers, no settlement. Just them and themselves. It seems it's working just great for them. Fundamental Islam makes a hell of a place to live in. Israel is here to stay. Israel was here to stay in 48, when the Arabs decided to push us back. Yep, the same Arabs who cooperated with the Nazi regime. I guess the poor sods were misunderstood. They just wanted peace and there was not better option for peace than Hitler. When they decided to attack - they brought up their own demise. Just as they are doing today. Thank you for the last paragraph. Everything above is of course BS, we all know there will never be a Palestinian state, least not where the borders are today. BUT, with the last paragraph you legitimize killing oppressed Palestinians just for the sake of it. Even today, you killed around 50 unarmed Palestinians just for fun. Thank you, mr. agent. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 4 hours ago, Glarmorgan said: When you have no valid arguments you bring up lies and insults. That's reasonable enough, but it does not make it truth. The Palestinians in the West Bank will have full civil rights in their Palestinian state, when they will decide they are ready to make necessary adjustments in their perception of reality, and accept Israel is here to stay. When they'll make that step - they'll have their own country. The Palestinians in Gaza have their state. No Israeli soldiers, no settlement. Just them and themselves. It seems it's working just great for them. Fundamental Islam makes a hell of a place to live in. Israel is here to stay. Israel was here to stay in 48, when the Arabs decided to push us back. Yep, the same Arabs who cooperated with the Nazi regime. I guess the poor sods were misunderstood. They just wanted peace and there was not better option for peace than Hitler. When they decided to attack - they brought up their own demise. Just as they are doing today. You are... biting my lip here. Gaza is an open air prison. With a blockade by an abusive, dominate, occupying power in place. Do terms like "cutting the grass" mean anything to you. What about calorie restrictions? Words like ghetto and concentration camp come to mind. I guess you are fortunate that the version of the fairy you talk to is currently in a good mood. It's pretty shameful that the rest of the world are just sitting back in response to this US fait accompli move. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 4 hours ago, Glarmorgan said: Never claimed we are or were saints. I think that we're much less of a demon than people are made to think. That's all. Also - Israel dealt with the Apartheid regime as a way to develop our "alleged" nuclear arsenal, which was imperative for our survival at the time. The Mufti of Jerusalem cooperated with Hitler as he hoped the Nazis will help him out with that tiny Jewish problem in the Middle East. Many Muslim Bosnian soldiers answered the Mufti's call and joined the Wehrmacht to fight against evil empires such as Great Britain and The United States. You can't possibly be serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 2 minutes ago, villakram said: You can't possibly be serious. I imagine Mordechai Vanunu would have some things to tell if he was allowed to speak with foreigners or journalists. But I imagine that will never happen, and if he was by some miracle allowed to leave he would soon meet with and unfortunate "accident". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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