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Israel, Palestine and Iran


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On 10/05/2018 at 02:25, Awol said:

Iran has been moving many thousands of rockets into Syria and many more into Lebanon for months, those are meant for Israel, not for use in Syrian conflict. 

The Trump decision has brought it to a head, but an attack on Israel was in the post. 

They tried to show they can shoot at us. It cost them dearly.

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7 hours ago, Glarmorgan said:

First of all - these questions are irrelevant to Iran. Iran is not targeting Israel for its control of the West Bank and so on. The middle east, if you'd like, is not a region which Iran should get a foothold in. Still they do. 

If your questions where honest in a quest to better understand my opinion and things here - I would gladly answer. Since my experience here proves that I need to deal with a lot of misleading ideas and false claims - I am extremely cautions when I am to deal with the Palestinian situations in this place. I respect the opinions of most people here, but when people here are trying to tell me how things are over here, it makes the whole discussion pointless. Israel is a very complex country, which sits in the middle of an extremely complex neighborhood, but after only 70 years of existence, we managed to build a country which if good to live in, with a democratic way of life  and freedom to us all (except for certain 2nd class citizens). This is the complete opposite to any other country here, from Tunisia, through Turkey to Iran and Saudi Arabia. True, there are things which can be done better, but I find it hard to believe that any other country in world could achieve that in 70 years. 

So, just let me know if you wish for me to answer. If so - I will gladly hold this discussion.

Please read some of the vast history on this topic. It extends much further than 70 years into the past.

A lot of patriotic chest thumping in there.

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7 hours ago, Glarmorgan said:

So, just let me know if you wish for me to answer. If so - I will gladly hold this discussion.

btw... I am genuinely interested in your input/opinion on this topic.

One of the great tragedies of modern discourse is the black & white way that debates are framed, e.g., anything said in the public domain that is against Israel will be labelled as anti-semitic. There is a significant section of Israeli society who see this and try to be heard but they are not ascendant right now. If only Bibi and his band of fanatics could be thrown aside.

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Back to direct US Politics.

The WSJ has a story running claiming that the FBI had a mole in the Trump campaign during the election. If true, the Stasi would be proud.

Meanwhile, Trump is chit chatting with the conniving auto-execs this morning, with figuring out how to navigate that pesky Californian environmental regulator high up on the agenda.

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Just now, Glarmorgan said:

Yes. Israeli HASBARA specifically targets Aston Villa supporters. This is a sub group we, as a nation, pay a lot of attention to.

something happens that is of interest to Israel, or is 'pro jewish' or damns someone for being anti semite etc., and there are some posters on here that 'pop up' after months of laying dormant

it's become something that's fairly predictable

the Israeli version of the 'useful idiot', if you will

I'm no great conspiracy theorist, it's just that people have their pet subjects and axes to grind

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6 hours ago, villakram said:

btw... I am genuinely interested in your input/opinion on this topic.

One of the great tragedies of modern discourse is the black & white way that debates are framed, e.g., anything said in the public domain that is against Israel will be labelled as anti-semitic. There is a significant section of Israeli society who see this and try to be heard but they are not ascendant right now. If only Bibi and his band of fanatics could be thrown aside.

First and foremost - I am not a supporter of Bibi. I think he is a bad leader, especially due to his internal politics which are based on division and separation. I never voted for him, nor I'll ever will. Still - he is not surrounded by "band of fanatics". True, there are some extreme clowns by his side, but they are making a lot of noise, and don't have that much of an influence on things over here. This is a problem with Twitter and Facebook and so -  people who are not worth our time, get a lot of room to state their crappy ideas.

1. There are no 2nd class citizens here. Really not. I can start with throwing facts - there are almost 20 non-Jewish parliament members, out of 120. There are about 60 Arab judges, one of them is  in the supreme court. There are no restrictions no the Arab population - an Arab can be a doctor, a lawyer, a teacher, a policeman, whatever you'd like. I work in the city of Ramla. Ramla is a city with a mixture of Arab and Jewish population. There are Arab students in the school I teach in. They are not treated any differently than the Jewish pupils. Both "sets" of pupils hang out together and form a regular friendly relationship. This is not something I "read" or "heard of". This is something from my day to day life. In the past I played football for a team called "Beitar Oranit". 5th division - a crappy team (as I am a crappy left back), but which combined players from Oranit (a Jewish town) and Kefar Kasem (an Arabic town, adjacent to Oranit). The gaffer was Arabic and we player in Kefar Kasem. 

 

2. The Palestinian issue, however, is a completely different thing. I, for one, support the two-state solution. The problem I have is that it seems that Palestinians do not support it... If their intention if to get back to 1948 - it means the end of the Jewish state. This is not something I can agree to. If they wish to fulfill the right of return - this means the end of the Jewish state and no sane Israeli will agree to that. When you add Abbass recent ramarks regarding the Jews being partly responsible for the holocaust, you come up to an understanding that at this time, a solution cannot be agreed upon. They want more than we are willing to give, regardless of right or left wing parties. No one in his right mind will sigh a treaty which will diminish the Jewish majority in Israel. So we are kinda stuck. 

 

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that's all good man, and it's important we all see some other sides and don't just live in our bubbles

90% of people just want a nice life for their kids

that goes for Israelis, Iranians, Palestinians and whatever other group presses your buttons

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9 minutes ago, Glarmorgan said:

1. There are no 2nd class citizens here. Really not (...)

2. The Palestinian issue, however, is a completely different thing. I, for one, support the two-state solution. The problem I have is that it seems that Palestinians do not support it... If their intention if to get back to 1948 - it means the end of the Jewish state. This is not something I can agree to. If they wish to fulfill the right of return - this means the end of the Jewish state and no sane Israeli will agree to that(...) They want more than we are willing to give, regardless of right or left wing parties. No one in his right mind will sigh a treaty which will diminish the Jewish majority in Israel. So we are kinda stuck. 

 

1. Forgive me, but that’s kind of easy for you to say, isn’t it? 

2. While I understand your position, I hope you might also accept that these demands (1948, resettlement) aren’t entirely unreasonable in principle and if you truly favour a two-state solution you must be willing to give up more than you are comfortable with. I also hope that you can appreciate that it’s not entirely unproblematic for a modern, liberal democracy to be so fundamentally based on the explicit predominance of one etno-religious group.

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On 11/05/2018 at 08:35, Glarmorgan said:

I respect the opinions of most people here, but when people here are trying to tell me how things are over here, it makes the whole discussion pointless.

Therein lies the problem.

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10 hours ago, Glarmorgan said:

First and foremost - I am not a supporter of Bibi. I think he is a bad leader, especially due to his internal politics which are based on division and separation. I never voted for him, nor I'll ever will. Still - he is not surrounded by "band of fanatics". True, there are some extreme clowns by his side, but they are making a lot of noise, and don't have that much of an influence on things over here. This is a problem with Twitter and Facebook and so -  people who are not worth our time, get a lot of room to state their crappy ideas.

1. There are no 2nd class citizens here. Really not. I can start with throwing facts - there are almost 20 non-Jewish parliament members, out of 120. There are about 60 Arab judges, one of them is  in the supreme court. There are no restrictions no the Arab population - an Arab can be a doctor, a lawyer, a teacher, a policeman, whatever you'd like. I work in the city of Ramla. Ramla is a city with a mixture of Arab and Jewish population. There are Arab students in the school I teach in. They are not treated any differently than the Jewish pupils. Both "sets" of pupils hang out together and form a regular friendly relationship. This is not something I "read" or "heard of". This is something from my day to day life. In the past I played football for a team called "Beitar Oranit". 5th division - a crappy team (as I am a crappy left back), but which combined players from Oranit (a Jewish town) and Kefar Kasem (an Arabic town, adjacent to Oranit). The gaffer was Arabic and we player in Kefar Kasem. 

 

2. The Palestinian issue, however, is a completely different thing. I, for one, support the two-state solution. The problem I have is that it seems that Palestinians do not support it... If their intention if to get back to 1948 - it means the end of the Jewish state. This is not something I can agree to. If they wish to fulfill the right of return - this means the end of the Jewish state and no sane Israeli will agree to that. When you add Abbass recent ramarks regarding the Jews being partly responsible for the holocaust, you come up to an understanding that at this time, a solution cannot be agreed upon. They want more than we are willing to give, regardless of right or left wing parties. No one in his right mind will sigh a treaty which will diminish the Jewish majority in Israel. So we are kinda stuck. 

 

Stop lying. You either don't know your politics, you're brain washed, or you are a hasbara agent (with is the same as brain washed). Sorry for being harsh, but I know who I am and I know the harsh realities the terror state inflicts on non-jews inside all of historic Palestine. Especially in Gaza and the West Bank. How can there be two-states while you are still expanding settlements and building settlements on new land in the West Bank? And the apartheid wall taking even more of Palestinian land? Facts, my friend, is not on your side. What Palestinians want is not an option. It is what you want, and you want it all, while slowly removing Palestinians from their homes, even sometimes using fake documents approved by the high court (see east Jerusalem).

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12 hours ago, Glarmorgan said:

2. The Palestinian issue, however, is a completely different thing. I, for one, support the two-state solution. The problem I have is that it seems that Palestinians do not support it... If their intention if to get back to 1948 - it means the end of the Jewish state. This is not something I can agree to. If they wish to fulfill the right of return - this means the end of the Jewish state and no sane Israeli will agree to that. When you add Abbass recent ramarks regarding the Jews being partly responsible for the holocaust, you come up to an understanding that at this time, a solution cannot be agreed upon. They want more than we are willing to give, regardless of right or left wing parties. No one in his right mind will sigh a treaty which will diminish the Jewish majority in Israel. So we are kinda stuck. 

'stuck'

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18 hours ago, Glarmorgan said:

First and foremost - I am not a supporter of Bibi. I think he is a bad leader, especially due to his internal politics which are based on division and separation. I never voted for him, nor I'll ever will. Still - he is not surrounded by "band of fanatics". True, there are some extreme clowns by his side, but they are making a lot of noise, and don't have that much of an influence on things over here. This is a problem with Twitter and Facebook and so -  people who are not worth our time, get a lot of room to state their crappy ideas.

1. There are no 2nd class citizens here. Really not. I can start with throwing facts - there are almost 20 non-Jewish parliament members, out of 120. There are about 60 Arab judges, one of them is  in the supreme court. There are no restrictions no the Arab population - an Arab can be a doctor, a lawyer, a teacher, a policeman, whatever you'd like. I work in the city of Ramla. Ramla is a city with a mixture of Arab and Jewish population. There are Arab students in the school I teach in. They are not treated any differently than the Jewish pupils. Both "sets" of pupils hang out together and form a regular friendly relationship. This is not something I "read" or "heard of". This is something from my day to day life. In the past I played football for a team called "Beitar Oranit". 5th division - a crappy team (as I am a crappy left back), but which combined players from Oranit (a Jewish town) and Kefar Kasem (an Arabic town, adjacent to Oranit). The gaffer was Arabic and we player in Kefar Kasem. 

 

2. The Palestinian issue, however, is a completely different thing. I, for one, support the two-state solution. The problem I have is that it seems that Palestinians do not support it... If their intention if to get back to 1948 - it means the end of the Jewish state. This is not something I can agree to. If they wish to fulfill the right of return - this means the end of the Jewish state and no sane Israeli will agree to that. When you add Abbass recent ramarks regarding the Jews being partly responsible for the holocaust, you come up to an understanding that at this time, a solution cannot be agreed upon. They want more than we are willing to give, regardless of right or left wing parties. No one in his right mind will sigh a treaty which will diminish the Jewish majority in Israel. So we are kinda stuck. 

 

Living over here. The pro-Israel lobby is infamously powerful/influential. It's not just twitter and fb losers in their mom's basement.

What about property rights? Travel rights? Jerusalem is in Israel the last time I checked. What is going on in the West Bank and Gaza are something that you should be ashamed to be associated with. It not purely Israels fault. I am Irish and remember well the well to do types in America happily funding the freedom struggle from the comfort of the easy life over here.

Also, we have an ism word for the desire to maintain a controlling majority based on things like sex, race, and belief in fairies and ghost stories. Falling into the last group is not something to be proud of. I find it instructive though. Why is it you are afraid that the non-jews would be in the majority? That's rhetorical btw.

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On 12/05/2018 at 01:20, Michelsen said:

1. Forgive me, but that’s kind of easy for you to say, isn’t it? 

2. While I understand your position, I hope you might also accept that these demands (1948, resettlement) aren’t entirely unreasonable in principle and if you truly favour a two-state solution you must be willing to give up more than you are comfortable with. I also hope that you can appreciate that it’s not entirely unproblematic for a modern, liberal democracy to be so fundamentally based on the explicit predominance of one etno-religious group.

1. You are right. I elaborated a bit more on a different reply. With you permission - I will paste it here

There are no 2nd class citizens here. Really not. I can start with throwing facts - there are almost 20 non-Jewish parliament members, out of 120. There are about 60 Arab judges, one of them is  in the supreme court. There are no restrictions no the Arab population - an Arab can be a doctor, a lawyer, a teacher, a policeman, whatever you'd like. I work in the city of Ramla. Ramla is a city with a mixture of Arab and Jewish population. There are Arab students in the school I teach in. They are not treated any differently than the Jewish pupils. Both "sets" of pupils hang out together and form a regular friendly relationship. This is not something I "read" or "heard of". This is something from my day to day life. In the past I played football for a team called "Beitar Oranit". 5th division - a crappy team (as I am a crappy left back), but which combined players from Oranit (a Jewish town) and Kefar Kasem (an Arabic town, adjacent to Oranit). The gaffer was Arabic and we player in Kefar Kasem. 

As I always say - there are always things to improve, but all in all, I think that Arab minority in Israel (just as other minorities) enjoys free life. There are almost no things holding them back from achieving anything they would like. Internal surveys, just as figures and numbers, show that the younger generation is trying to blend in, taking part in community civil service (instead of drafting. Still, they can draft to the IDF if they wish to) and most of the appreciate the benefits of living in Israel, in complete contrast to the other Arabs, throughout the middle east.

2. I completely agree. If publications are right, both Ehud Barak and Ehud Olmert, former prime ministers of Israel, offered the Palestinians about 97% of the occupied territories, to establish their Palestinian state on. If these numbers are right (and I see no reason to think they are not) - I don't think Israel can make any further move towards our "discomfort" zone. Olmert even agreed on turning Jerusalem into in international city, as a part of this agreement. I have to be honest and say that it's unlikely the Israeli public would have agreed to that, but it didn't come to this, as Abbas rejected it on the spot. You can google this up. It's not hard to find. Even in "The Guardian"'s website and "The Guardian is not a pro-Israeli newspaper. You cannot make peace with one side asking things and in return all they offer is to "accept our existence in the 1948 borders", and I won't even start into getting into the complete refusal of all solutions for the Right of Return. As long as this demand exists - nothing can be achieved .No one will accept it. No one will accept tens of thousands of Palestinians getting into Israel.

I hope this clarified my opinion up a bit.

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16 hours ago, villakram said:

Living over here. The pro-Israel lobby is infamously powerful/influential. It's not just twitter and fb losers in their mom's basement.

What about property rights? Travel rights? Jerusalem is in Israel the last time I checked. What is going on in the West Bank and Gaza are something that you should be ashamed to be associated with. It not purely Israels fault. I am Irish and remember well the well to do types in America happily funding the freedom struggle from the comfort of the easy life over here.

Also, we have an ism word for the desire to maintain a controlling majority based on things like sex, race, and belief in fairies and ghost stories. Falling into the last group is not something to be proud of. I find it instructive though. Why is it you are afraid that the non-jews would be in the majority? That's rhetorical btw.

OK. Let's separate the Israeli-Arabs from the Palestinians. I related to the former.

The Palestinians, as I said, are a problem which I find it hard to see a solution to, at the moment. Having said that - you cannot relate to Gaza and to the West Bank as same, as they are controlled by different factions and Israel made different steps regarding them both. Israel withdrew from Gaza completely. There are not "Gaza Lands" in Israeli hands. Still, after the withdrawal, Hammas took over and made Gaza his base of operation. Hammas is not into peace. Under no circumstances. They say it out loud. Earlier today I ran into an old interview with a Hammas official who blatantly said that any ceasefire's goal is to make them ready for the next round of violence. There is a border between Israel and Gaza. What you see in recent weeks are people trying to go through this border. Israel has its right to stop people from entering, especially when their intentions are well known. If you'll ask me - Israel should think of a way to help Gaza. Maybe allowing them to construct a port. I am not sure how, but we should be more active. Israel offered Gaza a deal - a complete disarmament of Hammas in Gaza in exchange for a complete support and reconstruction of Gaza, with Israel's assistance. I think it's a fair deal. I also wish to remind that Gaza have a border with Egypt. Right to travel - they can get through there.

The West Bank is a more complicated issue, since there are the settlements. In addition - the main reason the Fattah is still in charge and not Hammas, is that they rely on Israel to sruvive. The cooperation between Palestinians and Israeli security forces is what's keeping Fattah alive. I think that when a time for an agreement will come, most of the settlements will be disbanded and Israel with withdraw its forces, forming a security line in the Jordan Valley, to prevent external forces (such as ISIS) from getting from Jordan into Palestine. This, unfortunately, will not happen while there is a complete mistrust between the sides. By pointing only at Israel, you (or others) are being wrong.

Regarding the majority based on religion (hence - Israel being the home state for Jews) - I am sorry, but both history and the present taught us that unless we'll be in charge of our faith - no one else will. You can check out what happened to Jews who lived in Arab countries after Israel declared its independence. You can check what happened to Jews in Palestine, in 1929, under British mandate. There was no Israel nor occupation. Jews were the minority and being as such - were massacred.  But leave the Jews aside - you can go an check what's going on with the Christian population in this region. We are talking of Arabs, of course, but it didn't stop the Muslim Arabs to commit hostile acts against them. Don't take my word - just google it up. Religious conflicts are still present here. Islam is fighting Christians and Jews, while at the same time, the Shiite and Sunni fight amongst themselves. So, yes. I think that unless a Jewish state will exists - Jews will be under constant threat. Just as we were up until 1948.

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On 12/05/2018 at 11:22, momo said:

. You either don't know your politics, you're brain washed, or you are

 

On 12/05/2018 at 11:22, momo said:

Stop lying. You either don't know your politics, you're brain washed, or you are a hasbara agent (with is the same as brain washed). Sorry for being harsh, but I know who I am and I know the harsh realities the terror state inflicts on non-jews inside all of historic Palestine. Especially in Gaza and the West Bank. How can there be two-states while you are still expanding settlements and building settlements on new land in the West Bank? And the apartheid wall taking even more of Palestinian land? Facts, my friend, is not on your side. What Palestinians want is not an option. It is what you want, and you want it all, while slowly removing Palestinians from their homes, even sometimes using fake documents approved by the high court (see east Jerusalem).

You can call me whatever you wish. I don't approve of the settlements, but your description is far from the truth, hence I find it hard to call it "facts". In fact, the Right Wing parties here are furious for Bibi disapproval to expand the settlement. There is a constant arguments regarding this issue.

The wall? Just check how many terrorist attacks we endured before the wall, and check the number after. I would like to be kept alive and not being bombed in my bus in Tel Aviv, and if a wall (or a fence) will bring me that - that's fine by me. Removing Palestinians from their homes?!
I went to Wikipedia. According to Wikipedia the population growth rate in the West Bank is almost 2% (2014 stats). The population growth rate in the UK in 2017 was 0.5% (according to the CIA site). The mortality rate in the West Bank was 3.51/1000. In the UK 9.4/1000. These are numbers of a tyranny? I am not an HASBARA agent any more than you'r a BDS agent. You want facts? Start digging deeper and checking various sources of information. 

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59 minutes ago, Glarmorgan said:

 

You can call me whatever you wish. I don't approve of the settlements, but your description is far from the truth, hence I find it hard to call it "facts". In fact, the Right Wing parties here are furious for Bibi disapproval to expand the settlement. There is a constant arguments regarding this issue.

The wall? Just check how many terrorist attacks we endured before the wall, and check the number after. I would like to be kept alive and not being bombed in my bus in Tel Aviv, and if a wall (or a fence) will bring me that - that's fine by me. Removing Palestinians from their homes?!
I went to Wikipedia. According to Wikipedia the population growth rate in the West Bank is almost 2% (2014 stats). The population growth rate in the UK in 2017 was 0.5% (according to the CIA site). The mortality rate in the West Bank was 3.51/1000. In the UK 9.4/1000. These are numbers of a tyranny? I am not an HASBARA agent any more than you'r a BDS agent. You want facts? Start digging deeper and checking various sources of information. 

bla bla bla

Stop washing away crimes against humanity. There is only one fact, and that is not up for discussion. Btw, how about giving all Palestinians and those who call themselves israelis equal rights? You wont, because that will ruin the racist state built on the dead bodies of Palestinian. No, you cry crocodile tears when defenseless people fight against oppression, then you go and kill some thousand kids, and excuse it by calling them Hamas kids.

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