bickster Posted November 16, 2012 Moderator Share Posted November 16, 2012 We're on the whole not very proud of certain aspects of our past though. In fact quite a lot of our population aren't very proud of our very recent past either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glarmorgan Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Ethnic Cleansing by the Isreali's That is exactly the sort of propaganda I was talking about. Official numbers talk of 18 Palestinian dead. 3 days of airstrikes - 18 dead - this shows how much Israel is doing in order to avoid unnecessary casualties, unlike the peaceful and sweet Hamas (and Islamic Jihad), which keep on aiming their rockets at Israeli cities (and let's make it clear - there are civilians there. Not soldiers nor demons) The Iron Dome system tackled no less than 100 rockets. In case you do not know - the Iron Dome does not shoot any rocket. It targets only rockets aimed at populated territories. In other words - if not for Iron Dome, more than 100 rockets would land right within Israeli cities, probably bringing the casualty rate to be a bit higher that it is now. For some reason, I feel no need to apologize for our technological superiority which allows our dead count to remain relatively low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHV Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Because they are seemingly on route to developing nuclear weapons and have a stated desire to wipe another nation off the map. I think that is an exceptionally good reason why they shouldn't be allowed to get on with it. I very much doubt we did so I'd imagine they have done it by themselves or if they have hadd assistance it has come from the likes of Russia or China rather than the UK or US. Well not having a desire to wipe a nation of the face of the earth is a good start. It is a complex arguement, it is easy to make a strong case for saying we or any nation have no right to act as moral guardians but then it is very easy to make a case to say we have a moral obligation to do so as well. Sure there are times when I wish we weren't sticking our nose into affairs abroad, especially when it results in British boots on the ground and ultimately the loss of our boys in combat. Nobody ever wants to see that. What though is the alternative? We can't as supposed developed countries sad back and allow events like those in Bosnia to happen, we shouldn't stand back and let the leaders of countries like Lybia, Syria and the like murder their own people to stay in power. We shouldn't stand back and let a country that wishes to wipe another from the face of the earth develop nuclear weapons. Sure people talk about oil and self interests and they would have a point, we do often pick the fights that we stick our nose into but we can't deal with all the problems of the world so its hardly surprising we pick the ones we have a vested interest in. Do we have a right to stick our nose in what Iran is upto? Probably not but that doesn't mean its not the right thing to do. We didn't really have a right to tell German to stay out of Poland either though did we. I dont think Israel being wiped off the map would be a bad thing. A horrible nation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glarmorgan Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 We're on the whole not very proud of certain aspects of our past though. In fact quite a lot of our population aren't very proud of our very recent past either. And I assure you that 200-300 years from now, when we won't be needing to defend our borders and when our neighbors accept our existence - that we'll have the time to ponder of think of what we did wrong and whether things could be different. At the time being we cannot act as if we're in the middle of peaceful Europe, debating on a state far away. There are people in Israel who sleep in their bomb shelters for the past 10 days. You cannot just "put up" with this reality. No normal state would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 16, 2012 Moderator Share Posted November 16, 2012 And I assure you that 200-300 years from now, when we won't be needing to defend our borders and when our neighbors accept our existence - that we'll have the time to ponder of think of what we did wrong and whether things could be different. At the time being we cannot act as if we're in the middle of peaceful Europe, debating on a state far away. There are people in Israel who sleep in their bomb shelters for the past 10 days. You cannot just "put up" with this reality. No normal state would. There are people in Palestine who don't have bomb shelters. This really isn't a chicken and egg situation. Israel was imposed on Palestine not the other way around. And before you say anything else, the British involvement in the creation of Israel is another thing I'm personally deeply ashamed of in Britain's past. Possibly one of the most idiotic things we've ever done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 And before you say anything else, the British involvement in the creation of Israel is another thing I'm personally deeply ashamed of in Britain's past. Possibly one of the most idiotic things we've ever done What do you suggest, drive them into the sea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Official numbers talk of 18 Palestinian dead. 3 days of airstrikes - 18 dead - this shows how much Israel is doing in order to avoid unnecessary casualties, unlike the peaceful and sweet Hamas (and Islamic Jihad), which keep on aiming their rockets at Israeli cities and how many have the "300" Hamas rockets killed ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 and how many have the "300" Hamas rockets killed ? What a bone comment, Tone. That the Israeli body count is lower is not through lack of trying on the part of the Pallys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 16, 2012 Moderator Share Posted November 16, 2012 What do you suggest, drive them into the sea? Help them to settle back in the country of their birth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Help them to settle back in the country of their birth? Where, Judea? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 There are people in Palestine who don't have bomb shelters. This really isn't a chicken and egg situation. Israel was imposed on Palestine not the other way around. And before you say anything else, the British involvement in the creation of Israel is another thing I'm personally deeply ashamed of in Britain's past. Possibly one of the most idiotic things we've ever done Great post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 And before you say anything else, the British involvement in the creation of Israel is another thing I'm personally deeply ashamed of in Britain's past. Possibly one of the most idiotic things we've ever done It's true that the British were not guided by strategic considerations and there was no orderly decision making process but Balfour was drafted in a different time (much like the partition of India which ended up as a another f**k up ) and Britain was guilty of still following it's colonial mentality, but that's not unique of that era. If I recall from an article i read in History Today a lot of the problem is a result of the both the Jews and the Arabs believed that they had been promised the same piece of land for siding with the Allies in WWI (I think the promise to support an independent Arab kingdom came before Balfour) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glarmorgan Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 And before you say anything else, the British involvement in the creation of Israel is another thing I'm personally deeply ashamed of in Britain's past. Possibly one of the most idiotic things we've ever done Britain actually did nothing but leave here. They've entered a sparsely populated piece of land in 1918 and left a sparsely populated piece of land in 1948. There was no Palestinian state before the Brits and due to the sheer stupidity of the Arabs in 1948 - there wasn't one after they left. This is quite simple - they were offered an independent state by the UN in 1948 and refused. They were offered a state by Ehud Barak in 1999 (or was it 2000?) and refused. They were offered a state by Ehud Olmert 5 years ago - and refused - and these are the moderate Palestinians. The Hamas won't settle for less than the extermination of Israel (not to mention their desire to kill all Jews and Christians, but let's leave this aside for now). All in all - this debate has got nothing to do with the ongoing issue with Gaza. Gaza was occupied by Egypt. There is no Israeli presence in Gaza at the moment. Still they have the Hamas calling for our destruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Ah, the promised land. The only place in the middle east with no oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eames Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Milk and Honey CED. Flowing with Milk and Honey. Who needs Trillions of dollars worth of Oil money when you have milk AND honey! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted November 16, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted November 16, 2012 IIRC the land of milk and honey was Canaan, aka Lebanon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 They were offered a state by Ehud Barak in 1999 (or was it 2000?) and refused. They were offered a state by Ehud Olmert 5 years ago... I wonder whether the Palestinian authorities felt that the 'offers' were unsatisfactory and/or that the Israelis couldn't be trusted not to settle on the land graciously permitted to the Palestinians or not to build a 20m concrete wall across it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted November 16, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted November 16, 2012 It has no water either. Truly the land of god. Eretz Yisrael will come to pass soon enough, it's a recognised founding aim of the Likud Party IIRC, and would make the Palestinian problem go away, or at the very least be scattered to the wind. As for Israel status as bastards of the world, if it's not enough that they believe they can use assassination with impunity, and believe that using a **** missile is the best way to do it in the middle of one of the most overcrowded civilian populations in the world, they've also shot taxi drivers they suspect of being a danger while they had passengers in their vehicle. They don't care about civilian casualities (I would argue they actively want them). They bombed a building containing an Hamas leader, with a 1 tonne munition, successfully killing the man but also killing 16 others, including 11 children, and injuring another 140. Because the building was an apartment building. They've bulldozed the homes of Palestinians they have arrested for various offences, taking no consideration for the fact that in Gaza and the West Bank a house may contain a number of unrelated families, and have even bulldozed homes while people are still in them. They have even done this in cases where a detainee had not even been found guilty. A fairly clear example of collective punishment, thankfully they've come to their senses on that one and stopped the policy. They have a legislated use of torture, including use of sleep deprivation, abrupt forced movement of limbs and joints, dry beating and frog crouching. They've in the past also used proxies for rather more traditional torture techniques - beatings with belts sticks and chair legs, burning with cigarettes, threats of electrocution and rape, under Israeli supervision. They restrict movement of Palestinians using checkpoints, arbitrarily denying access and creating highly tense atmospheres at crossings, described as 'pressure cookers'. They've been a focus of violence - from beatings to seemingly arbitrary shootings (the incidents of this are numerous - from soldiers ordering a driver, the driver doing so, and then having his vehicle fired on killing a passenger, to a group of commuters crossing Burin Mountain following the closure of a road, 2 km from an IDF base, being fired on completely without warning and without posing a threat) and in general represent an absolute derision for the Palestinian population. And what makes all this worse, perhaps, is it that doesn't achieve anything of merit. Killing Hamas leaders doesn't force Hamas to pack it in or weaken the organisation, mounting indiscriminate land invasions of Gaza and the West Bank doesn't make Palestinians less likely to fight back against Israel, and so on. It is all nonsense. They simply want the Palestinians gone, they want Gaza and the West Bank and they don't like the fact that people are already there. Not that they really give a shit because they keep building on that land anyway. **** despicable nation and it is sickening that they're allowed to get away with this again and again. I think only the French could challenge the Israelis for a list of UN reprimands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Only 18 people killed? Only 18 people killed??? Unbelievable. This is the attitude of those who sympathise with Israel. 18 people too many. They know what they are doing, they have enough experience of war. They wage it every few years. They don't give a shit about casulaties. Bloodthirsty you could say. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Only 18 people killed? Only 18 people killed??? Unbelievable. This is the attitude of those who sympathise with Israel. 18 people too many. They know what they are doing, they have enough experience of war. They wage it every few years. They don't give a shit about casualties. Bloodthirsty you could say. And the rockets Hamas are firing at Israeli cities are intended to do what exactly, tickle people? Some posters here need a serious **** reality check. The fascists of Hamas took over Gaza by force, by killing their secular Fatah rivals. Those posters championing Hamas are either 1) historically ignorant (see Rev's post about Hamas being driven from their lands in Southern Israel - need to pick up a history book there, chief), or 2) flat out anti-semitic hypocrites who are cheering proxies of the Iranian Ayatollah like he's a boss. Comments about how Israel was Britain's greatest mistake, how it should be wiped off the map or how the Jews should 'go home' make me want to puke. If you substituted Israeli's for Muslims, brown people, Pakistani's etc the same individuals making those comments would be screaming "BNP" and "Fascist" from the rooftops - and rightly so. Fortunately the Israeli's are immune to the opinions of the chattering classes in the UK and will do whatever they need to do to ensure the protection of their citizens, for which I applaud them. Anyone with the wit to put the situation in the regional context might observe the following: Hamas, Hezbollah and Syria are clients of Iran (Hamas are firing Iranian military rockets at Israeli cities) and that country has stoked Hamas to begin a campaign against Israel in the south that will tie down large numbers of the IDF. This serves two potential purposes: making it more difficult to address events on the northern border (it would be no surprise to see a new front opened against Israel by Hezbollah at Iranian direction - and Syrian forces loyal to Assad have been firing at Israeli forces in the Golan unprovoked), and secondly these actions put Israel on the defensive, making it less likely that they will have the time and space to deal directly with Iran's nuclear weapon programme. The Iranians (and the rest of the Arab world for that matter) don't give a shit about the Palestinians, they are just useful idiots. Anyone who thinks Hamas are operating without direction from Iran needs to give their heads a wobble. This current mess is as much about Syria and Iran as it is about the poor oppressed Gazans. Finally Egypt aren't going to do anything, all of Israel's neighbours that have tried to make a sport out of kills Jews have have their arses handed to them. The Egyptians learned that lesson long ago. +1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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