Formula One - 2018

[Genie]

1 hour ago, BOF said:

Well that was fun.  Props to Gasly.  He came of age this weekend, and will be one to keep an eye on for the bigger teams now.  A stunning drive from Vettel aswell.  Getting those tyres to the end and keeping it on the black stuff without suffering a failure is absolute top notch.  I thought the Mercs had it in the bag when they came out on the harder compound and were clearly going to the end.  Verstappen needs to knuckle down and start finishing races.  He doesn't want to become his father, but failures are becoming more regular than finishes now.  As for the poor Ferrari mechanic.  Webber made a salient point in Channel 4's post-race analysis.  There's currently an arms race happening around pit stops.  In an attempt to squeeze tenths of a second out of the stop, shortcuts are being taken, and that is affecting safety.  The FIA need to step in there and I suspect they will soon.  Unsafe releases have become too common and that jeopardises everyone, not just mechanics.  A loose wheel could go into the stands and kill a lot of people.  But anyway, apart from that it was an enjoyable and unpredictable race right up to the very end.  Good to see Ericsson break his duck too.

The current pit stops are stupidly short, less that 3 seconds to change 4 wheels is all good when it goes well but as you say, dangerous errors are creeping in. How are FIA going to be able to improve the safety? Impose a minimum stop time (say 4 seconds?).

[BOF]

Just now, Genie said:

The current pit stops are stupidly short, less that 3 seconds to change 4 wheels is all good when it goes well but as you say, dangerous errors are creeping in. How are FIA going to be able to improve the safety? Impose a minimum stop time (say 4 seconds?).

The time isn't actually the issue.  It's a symptom of the issue i.e. cutting corners.  It's possible to have just as dangerous a pitstop which takes longer to complete, if you're still cutting safety corners.  While you can't dictate the length of time something takes to do, you can make sure certain procedures are followed, and those procedures will; by their nature; take some amount of time to complete.   According to Webber, Red Bull for instance have stayed relatively old school with their pit stops.

[Genie]

8 minutes ago, BOF said:

The time isn't actually the issue.  It's a symptom of the issue i.e. cutting corners.  It's possible to have just as dangerous a pitstop which takes longer to complete, if you're still cutting safety corners.  While you can't dictate the length of time something takes to do, you can make sure certain procedures are followed, and those procedures will; by their nature; take some amount of time to complete.   According to Webber, Red Bull for instance have stayed relatively old school with their pit stops.

I guess the FIA's involvement will just be fining / punishing the teams more heavily? The 50k fine for Ferrari here won't keep anyone awake at night. Grid penalties for unsafe releases could get them sweating a bit.

[BOF]

Just now, Genie said:

I guess the FIA's involvement will just be fining / punishing the teams more heavily? The 50k fine for Ferrari here won't keep anyone awake at night. Grid penalties for unsafe releases could get them sweating a bit.

With people actually getting injured, I suspect we might see a mid-season rule change on pit-stop procedure.  I also don't think it's something the teams would disagree with, or be able to say no to, as they'd look like they don't care about their employees.  Bringing back a mandatory lollipop man would be a start, and crucially it would be easy to implement, and there's a high chance he would clearly have seen the issue with Ferrari's left rear on Sunday.

[Genie]

1 minute ago, BOF said:

With people actually getting injured, I suspect we might see a mid-season rule change on pit-stop procedure.  I also don't think it's something the teams would disagree with, or be able to say no to, as they'd look like they don't care about their employees.  Bringing back a mandatory lollipop man would be a start, and crucially it would be easy to implement, and there's a high chance he would clearly have seen the issue with Ferrari's left rear on Sunday.

I wonder if they'll ban standing in between the 2 axles during a pit stop, especially with your back to the jack man. Seemed like a silly place to be in hindsight.

[BOF]

Just now, Genie said:

I wonder if they'll ban standing in between the 2 axles during a pit stop, especially with your back to the jack man. Seemed like a silly place to be in hindsight.

You can't really blanket ban stuff like that.  There will be scenarios in the future where someone has to stand there to access something like the air intake being blocked above the driver's head etc.  What you do is you put in place a better means of release, and the rest becomes safer after that.  IMHO.

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, BOF said:

Webber made a salient point in Channel 4's post-race analysis.  There's currently an arms race happening around pit stops.  In an attempt to squeeze tenths of a second out of the stop, shortcuts are being taken, and that is affecting safety.  The FIA need to step in there and I suspect they will soon.  Unsafe releases have become too common and that jeopardises everyone, not just mechanics.  A loose wheel could go into the stands and kill a lot of people.

This is what I was trying to get at earlier with the refuelling point.

It wasn't about the fuel, it was about extending the length of a pitstop so that those shortcuts aren't taken. 

Maybe something like a 2 or 3 second delay until released? When  t he crew have "finished", they have to wait 2 or 3 full seconds before the car is released. It gives a small window to realise something has gone wrong.
There would still be value to shaving time off the stop but it would give a delay to avoid these unsafe releases.

[BOF]

Still, could be worse.

Methanol flames are invisible.

 

[BOF]

3 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

This is what I was trying to get at earlier with the refuelling point.

It wasn't about the fuel, it was about extending the length of a pitstop so that those shortcuts aren't taken. 

Maybe something like a 2 or 3 second delay until released? When  t he crew have "finished", they have to wait 2 or 3 full seconds before the car is released. It gives a small window to realise something has gone wrong.
There would still be value to shaving time off the stop but it would give a delay to avoid these unsafe releases.

I still think you only fix it properly by adding safety procedures (i.e. re-introducing the corners that are currently being cut), not by adding arbitrary amounts of time.

[Genie]

1 minute ago, Stevo985 said:

This is what I was trying to get at earlier with the refuelling point.

It wasn't about the fuel, it was about extending the length of a pitstop so that those shortcuts aren't taken. 

Maybe something like a 2 or 3 second delay until released? When  t he crew have "finished", they have to wait 2 or 3 full seconds before the car is released. It gives a small window to realise something has gone wrong.
There would still be value to shaving time off the stop but it would give a delay to avoid these unsafe releases.

This would have saved both Haas cars in Melbourne!

I think it still runs the risk of the team rushing to get to the point of starting the "wait" time. If they had a fixed 4/5 second minimum then it would encourage the pit crew to slow down slightly and reduce the risk of an error or accident

[Stevo985]

1 minute ago, BOF said:

I still think you only fix it properly by adding safety procedures (i.e. re-introducing the corners that are currently being cut), not by adding arbitrary amounts of time.

Definitely as a permanent fix, I agree. I was thinking more of a quick fix to avoid these accidents that are happening. A 2 second wait after "finishing" would have avoided the ferrari incident and the two Haas incidents the week before, imo.

[Genie]

1 minute ago, BOF said:

I still think you only fix it properly by adding safety procedures (i.e. re-introducing the corners that are currently being cut), not by adding arbitrary amounts of time.

There were plenty of unsafe releases back in the days of the lollipop man deciding when to let the car go.

[BOF]

Just now, Genie said:

I think it still runs the risk of the team rushing to get to the point of starting the "wait" time.

Exactly.  A 7 second stop is not necessarily safer than a 4 second stop if the same procedures are being followed.

[Stevo985]

1 minute ago, Genie said:

This would have saved both Haas cars in Melbourne!

I think it still runs the risk of the team rushing to get to the point of starting the "wait" time. If they had a fixed 4/5 second minimum then it would encourage the pit crew to slow down slightly and reduce the risk of an error or accident

Yeah they would definitely rush to get to the start of the wait time. Like BOF said a more permanent fix would be needed.

But the point is it gives a little window for them to realise they can't actually release the car and abort it.

[BOF]

Just now, Stevo985 said:

Definitely as a permanent fix, I agree. I was thinking more of a quick fix to avoid these accidents that are happening. A 2 second wait after "finishing" would have avoided the ferrari incident and the two Haas incidents the week before, imo.

Quick fix is a lollipop man IMO.  Everyone raises their arm when their corner is complete.  He sees 4 arms and he lifts the lolly.

[BOF]

2 minutes ago, Genie said:

There were plenty of unsafe releases back in the days of the lollipop man deciding when to let the car go.

Those were at a time when refuelling was also part of the procedure, and that was the most dangerous element of all.  Now with just 4 tyres, his job is much easier.

Anyway, let's see what happens   I suspect something will.

[Stevo985]

6 minutes ago, BOF said:

Quick fix is a lollipop man IMO.  Everyone raises their arm when their corner is complete.  He sees 4 arms and he lifts the lolly.

Are all of the systems automatic now? I was under the impression there was still someone controlling the overall decision to release the car (in the same way a lollipop man would, just using a light or similar instead of a lollipop).

[Genie]

5 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Are all of the systems automatic now? I was under the impression there was still someone controlling the overall decision to release the car (in the same way a lollipop man would, just using a light or similar instead of a lollipop).

I think you're right because someone still has to agree that its safe to release the car into the pitlane (i.e. no other car coming). Guy at the front has to make that decision, seems logical that he also checks for 4 raised hands too (like the good old days as BOF suggested).

[Stevo985]

Just now, Genie said:

I think you're right because someone still has to agree that its safe to release the car into the pitlane (i.e. no other car coming). Guy at the front has to make that decision, seems logical that he also checks for 4 raised hands too (like the good old days as BOF suggested).

This is my point. If that's the case, then there is still a guy looking at that stop and saying "yes you can go". 

The biggest mistake, imo, is that there is so much pressure to shave tenths off that that person is making the decision before he is absolutely sure that it's safe to release.

 

Both HAAS incidents the wheel guy was signalling that there was something wrong but the car was released anyway. 
From what I heard on the commentary the Ferrari was similar but it was because the light system they use never went off because the old wheel was never removed.

 

This 2-3 second wait I suggested would ensure that the lollipop man or whatever he is now had that extra window of time to assess the situation and not release the car unsafely.

 

Again I agree with BOF that a more permanent solution is needed. But I think a lollipop man would still be vulnerable to making that wrong decision because of the length of the stops.

[BOF]

57 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Are all of the systems automatic now? I was under the impression there was still someone controlling the overall decision to release the car (in the same way a lollipop man would, just using a light or similar instead of a lollipop).

I believe some teams have an automated system.  So there's no-one controlling the decision.  This is what causes the problems.  Introducing a human element allows for thinking on your feet, instead of blindly following a lighting system which could kill someone.  As I said earlier, Red Bull seem to have stayed more old school where others have evolved it to within an inch of someone's life.