Kuwabatake Sanjuro Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 38 minutes ago, brommy said: The solution is to reduce the amount of downforce the FIA allows. Set a maximum of one or two aero wings, instead of the half a dozen plus currently used, and thedirty air will be reduced enough for the faster car/driver to pass. I think the spectacle of overtaking trumps slightly faster cornering. If they could word the regulations in a way that would result in the attractive simple front wings of the 90's cars were reintroduced then that would be excellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 46 minutes ago, brommy said: The solution is to reduce the amount of downforce the FIA allows. Set a maximum of one or two aero wings, instead of the half a dozen plus currently used, and the dirty air will be reduced enough for the faster car/driver to pass. I think the spectacle of overtaking trumps slightly faster cornering. I agree on the over taking thing, there were 3 DRS zones on the circuit. If the Mercedes had so much power in reserve plus DRS how did it not get past the Ferrari? If a far superior car still cannot pass with DRS then it’s going to be a long and boring season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brommy Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Genie said: I agree on the over taking thing, there were 3 DRS zones on the circuit. If the Mercedes had so much power in reserve plus DRS how did it not get past the Ferrari? If a far superior car still cannot pass with DRS then it’s going to be a long and boring season. The Mercedes did not have 'so much power in reserve' , just a bit more than enough to pass the Ferrari if it weren't for the combination of dirty air and a circuit that is notoriously difficult to overtake on. On another track it might have been a different story. At the moment, I don't see the Mercedes as far superior to the Ferrari, just a bit better. Mercedes do have a few improvements up their sleeve though. It also remains to be seen how close to maximum power the none Mercedes engines are running to try to compete with the more easily obtainable power from the Mercedes units and whether it could cause reliability issues as each engine completes more races. Edited March 31, 2018 by brommy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 6 hours ago, brommy said: The Mercedes did not have 'so much power in reserve' , just a bit more than enough to pass the Ferrari if it weren't for the combination of dirty air and a circuit that is notoriously difficult to overtake on. On another track it might have been a different story. I think this shows F1 is broken. The Mercedes continues to be the fastest car on the track (comfortably), and then when you give it 3 DRS zones per lap it still can’t pass the competition. The fact it’s “tricky” to pass on this circuit shouldn’t really come into play. The FIA need to address the dirty air issue as it’s killing the sport as a spectacle. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted April 3, 2018 Author Moderator Share Posted April 3, 2018 On 31/03/2018 at 21:22, Genie said: I think this shows F1 is broken. The Mercedes continues to be the fastest car on the track (comfortably), and then when you give it 3 DRS zones per lap it still can’t pass the competition. The fact it’s “tricky” to pass on this circuit shouldn’t really come into play. In fairness, Melbourne being a tricky overtaking track really is part of its own problem, and of course that comes into play. Bahrain should give us a more representative picture of where overtaking in F1 is at the moment. It's obviously not in a good place (see below), but Melbourne is far from a typical circuit. On 31/03/2018 at 21:22, Genie said: The FIA need to address the dirty air issue as it’s killing the sport as a spectacle. They are going to address it, and it's penned in for 2021. It's not the work of a moment to fix, and it also requires feedback (and concensus) from the teams. It's the single biggest problem in F1 at the moment and has been for about 20 years. They need to get it right, so they're taking their time in doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFCDAN Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 I think with regards to overtaking you have to factor in that these drivers are (allegedly) the best of the best. If they can go 40 laps without making a mistake and positioning their car exactly where it needs to be sometimes you just have to say fair play. Without a significant car advantage behind you shouldn't just be cruising past someone really, that's part of the skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 2 hours ago, BOF said: They are going to address it, and it's penned in for 2021. It's not the work of a moment to fix, and it also requires feedback (and concensus) from the teams. It's the single biggest problem in F1 at the moment and has been for about 20 years. They need to get it right, so they're taking their time in doing so. You can’t say they have had 20 years and then need more time unless you work for the FIA The F1 teams have been through several generations of electrification in the past 5 years. If the really want to fix over taking they can. Consulting the teams is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted April 3, 2018 Author Moderator Share Posted April 3, 2018 51 minutes ago, Genie said: You can’t say they have had 20 years and then need more time unless you work for the FIA I didn't. You read it wrong. As a fan I am saying it's been their biggest problem for 20 years. It's only in the past decade or so that the previous owners even engaged with the fans on what the problems were. This was instigated by falling viewer numbers. Then after all the consultation they came to a conclusion and now that conclusion must be put into practice. All takes time and unfortunately their initial stubbornness in refusing to admit there was a problem has meant F1 has probably lost a decade to shit and/or gimmicky racing via DRS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted April 3, 2018 Author Moderator Share Posted April 3, 2018 Formula Two exclusive: Jack Aitken previews the 2018 season This is an interesting preview of F2, which starts this weekend alongside the F1 race. It sounds like F1's feeder series will have its strongest pedigree in a long time (maybe ever?) and the top 5 places will be very hotly-contested. I must admit, the more I know about something, the more I am interested in it. I'd like to try and follow F2 this season if only to have some idea of the next generation coming through. How easy it will be to follow (other than just looking at results) remains to be seen. Quote Formula Two The new Formula Two season, which begins this weekend in Bahrain, promises to be one of the most open and difficult to predict in the 14-year history of the series which began life as GP2. Over half of the drivers confirmed for this year’s championship are new to the series and many of them have excellent racing pedigrees. They including reigning Formula Three champion and McLaren development driver Lando Norris, plus his F3 rival Max Gunther. The top three from last year’s GP3 championship have also made the step up. Among that trio is Jack Aitken, who in an exclusive interview for RaceFans gave his insight into his rivals and whether the all-new F2 car for 2018 will allow the championship to sustain its reputation for great racing. 2018 F2 field ‘stronger than last year’ 2018 F2 drivers and teams Team Driver (starts) Driver (starts) Russian Time Artem Markelov (86) Tadasuke Makino (0) Prema Sean Gelael (53) Nyck de Vries (21) DAMS TBA TBA ART Jack Aitken (0) George Russell (0) MP Ralph Boschung (20) TBA Arden Max Gunther (0) Nirei Fukuzumi (0) Campos Luca Ghiotto (44) Roy Nissany (0) Trident Arjun Maini (0) Santino Ferrucci (0) Carlin Lando Norris (0) Sergio Sette Camara (22) Charouz Louis Deletraz (24) Antonio Fuoco (22) Last year Aitken and George Russell went toe-to-toe for the GP3 title at ART. Russell prevailed, but the pair have graduated together to F2. Adding extra spice to their rivalry, each has an F1 manufacturer backing them: Aitken has been backed by Renault since winning two of their junior titles in 2015, while Russell has already tested for Mercedes and had F1 practice session runs for their engine customer Force India. ART has been part of the championship since it began, so as Aitken explains it made perfect sense to team up with them for the first year with a new car. “ART have had a god season more often than not,” he said. “They’ve been consistently at the top for a long time now and with the new car coming in especially I felt a team of their knowledge resource and depth of talent in terms of engineering, they’re going to be at the top, at the sharp end at least.” How strong will the threat from Prema be? They rocked the series as newcomers in 2016, not merely winning the team’s title but grabbing the top two spots in the drivers’ championship with Pierre Gasly and Antonio Giovinazzi. Last year one of their drivers was champion again in Charles Leclerc. But Russian Time beat them to the teams’ title and this year they have McLaren’s ‘other’ junior – Nyck de Vries – paired with Sean Gelael, who is conspicuously short on results at this level. Is this the makings of a title defence? Reigning F3 champion Norris is highly rated Aitken isn’t taking anything for granted about their performance. “It’s very likely they’re going to be on top of the car and doing a good job,” he says. “I can’t see Prema not being there.” “In testing they’ve been pretty strong and last year we know that they were hiding their pace quite a lot in testing. It could be that they turn up to the first race and they’re miles ahead of everyone. You never really know. They’re a hugely successful team so they’re going to be there.” One of several potential rivalries to watch is that between long standing McLaren junior driver De Vries and Norris, who has gradually eclipsed him on the F1 team’s roster. Norris is also battling to be the foremost of several promising British talents along with Aitken, Russell and potentially Alexander Albon, if the latter is able to land one of the three remaining places. Haas-backed duo Santino Ferrucci and Arjun Maini will race for Trident in a field which is thick with rookie talent and F1 juniors. Aitken has an eye on a few of the less obvious names too. “From my perspective one who’s surprised me in testing is probably Sette Camara,” he says. “He won a race last year, he was not really consistently at the front, but to be fair in testing he was matching Lando quite often and doing a pretty good job all round.” De Vries has joined champions Prema Russian Time’s Tadasuke Makino is another of Aitken’s tips. “He did Formula Three last year and wasn’t bad but wasn’t setting the world alight. In testing some of his race runs looked pretty impressive and if he gets some consistency he could surprise people.” Last year Leclerc took a dominant rookie title but Aitken believes the standard will be higher in 2018. “The difference this year is that there’s a few more rookies but the rookies are quite high level on average.” “We’ve got guys returning in top teams who are going to be strong as well. I think Charles did a really good job but in terms of depth it wasn’t one of the strongest. I know this year a lot of the team managers feels this is a particularly strong year. Certainly the top five’s going to be really hotly contested.” Former champions Racing Engineering have sadly departed the fold and junior outfit Fortec’s entry plans did not come together. Nonetheless a particularly strong rookie intake promises to make this an exciting year. F2’s new car for 2018 Teams will race the new Dallara F2 2018 For the first time since 2011 F2 has a new car. As well as following several F1-style design cues the new machine featured the biggest change in power train since the category was created in 2015. Out goes the old naturally aspirated V8, in comes a turbocharged 620bhp V6. The aim with the new car has been to keep it relevant to F1 while keeping lap times at a similar level. “The chassis is not hugely different but it does feel like it’s got a little bit more mechanical grip with the wider track,” says Aitken. “Despite the weight it does feel a little bit better in the corners.” The old car, with its overtones of a 2010 HRT, could hardly be described as a looker but it did produce beautiful racing. Will the new machine sustain F2’s reputation for action? “It’s hard to tell in testing but in the race runs I’ve done where I’ve been following others or running in traffic it’s not been any worse than the old car,” says Aitken. “Which is to say that in a high-downforce car like an F2 car it’s always going to be a pain in the butt following someone else but relatively these cars are actually not too bad.” Of course the most visible addition to the car is the Halo. In common with most drivers, Aitken can hardly be described as a fan of how it looks outside the car but says he hardly notices it once he’s at the wheel. As to whether the Halo should be colour-coded to match the driver, as Norris has done with his, Aitken and ART preferred not to draw attention to theirs. “It’s something that we discussed [but] I think for the most part we were happy to leave it black because it blends in best when you just leave it black, which is what a few F1 teams have done as well,” he explains. Unlike last year every F2 round will support the F1 championship meaning there will be no standalone rounds. The season opener reverted to Bahrain last year and that remains the case this season. Following that the teams make an early visit to Baku. This is a new venue for Aitken though one which he has some experience of thanks to his access to ART and Renault’s simulators. “It’s an odd track from a driving point of view,” he says. “It’s not really like much else that you’ll see in the calendar. It’s a street track but, also, not really, because it’s got run-off areas and it’s really wide in places. Generally it produces pretty interesting results a well.” The fourth double-header in Monaco will also be a new venue for him and many of his rivals although some, such as Norris, have raced on it earlier in their careers. “The quality of calendars in things like the [Formula Renault] Eurocup and F3 these days, all these championships are going to such great tracks quite consistently,” says Aitken. “The standard’s really picked up in the last few years.” As the final rounds take place in Abu Dhabi there is the usual near-two-month break towards the end of the schedule. Last year Leclerc wrapped up the championship before then, but with so many promising drivers in the field this year the title could go down to the wire this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 6 minutes ago, BOF said: I didn't. You read it wrong. As a fan I am saying it's been their biggest problem for 20 years. It's only in the past decade or so that the previous owners even engaged with the fans on what the problems were. This was instigated by falling viewer numbers. Then after all the consultation they came to a conclusion and now that conclusion must be put into practice. All takes time and unfortunately their initial stubbornness in refusing to admit there was a problem has meant F1 has probably lost a decade to shit and/or gimmicky racing via DRS. It’s seems like this year is worse than ever. I remember years ago when DRS was introduced it was so that cars that were clearly faster would not get stuck for 20-30 laps behind a slower car. It seemed to work in the early days. Now we’re back to the pre-DRS days where cars are being held up even with more power and much less rear wing. It’s made the DRS gimmick redundant as it doesn’t have that “well it avoids the holding up issue” as it doesn’t even do that. This consulting fans and teams is what is causing the delays. The FIA need to pull together a small team of experts/designers and agree what will help overtaking and cascade the rules for next season or the season after at the very latest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted April 3, 2018 Author Moderator Share Posted April 3, 2018 1 minute ago, Genie said: It’s seems like this year is worse than ever. I remember years ago when DRS was introduced it was so that cars that were clearly faster would not get stuck for 20-30 laps behind a slower car. It seemed to work in the early days. Now we’re back to the pre-DRS days where cars are being held up even with more power and much less rear wing. It’s made the DRS gimmick redundant as it doesn’t have that “well it avoids the holding up issue” as it doesn’t even do that. I would tend to agree with that. Although I always had my suspicions that while DRS was brought in under the guise of stopping a 30-lap hold up, in reality it was a pseudo 'turbo button' to attract and/or keep the attention of a new type of F1 fan (i.e. a gimmick). As you say, it may not be as effective at that now, although we still need to wait for a track that isn't Melbourne just to be sure. 1 minute ago, Genie said: This consulting fans and teams is what is causing the delays. The FIA need to pull together a small team of experts/designers and agree what will help overtaking and cascade the rules for next season or the season after at the very latest. Oh they already know the 'what'. Just not the 'how'. The 'what' is getting rid of, or reducing, the dirty air behind the lead car. Changing F1's aerodynamic design rules so that the following car can travel more closely behind the car in front going through the twisty bits, to be in a better position to mount an overtake in the next straight. At the moment he has to stay a proverbial mile behind. Implementing that however is the tricky bit. Do you do it by reducing overall downforce or can you devise a design which allows cars to maintain aero without creating as much dirty air (you won't eliminate it)? As long as they get it right in the end then I'll be happy. The dream is to go back to cars dicing through the corners 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted April 3, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted April 3, 2018 I remember the dirty air discussion happening at least 10 years ago. Maybe more. Im sure one of the mooted solutions was to split the back wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted April 4, 2018 Author Moderator Share Posted April 4, 2018 And as if by magic, an article quoting Ross Brawn on where they are in relation to the big changes coming for 2021. I found his quotes relating to dirty air to be encouraging. Quote Claims Liberty are dumbing down F1 are “offensive” – Brawn Formula One’s managing director of motorsport Ross Brawn said he took offence at suggestions Liberty Media was trying to ‘dumb down’ Formula One. Last year Ferrari president Sergio Marchionne threatened to pull his team out of the sport if the commercial rights holders turn it into something he likened to a ‘global NASCAR’. Brawn, who will present his vision for F1’s future regulations to teams in Bahrain on Friday, rejected the idea Liberty intends to dilute the technological side of F1. “I think it’s critical we have a vision of where we see Formula One,” he told Radio Sport New Zealand. “I find it very frustrating that people accuse us of spoiling the DNA of this, that and the other. Formula One has a long history of incredible competition and it’s the pinnacle of motor sport. Why would we choose to damage that? “I find it personally offensive when people accuse me of dumbing down the sport because we know if we did that we’d spoil the sport at its core and we’d spoil the commercial basis for the sport as well.” However Brawn said F1’s top teams must understand the cost of competing in the sport has become excessive. “The teams at the top at the moment are probably spending two or three times what they were spending five or six years ago. And yet you wouldn’t say that five or six years ago the sport was dumb. It’s just a question of degree. “We have to help the teams at the top recognise and realise that to have a sport for the future we’ve got to re-base the commercial revenues of teams, re-base amount of scope the teams are allowed to explore technical in order to give a more exciting competition.” Brawn said the work being down to improve the quality of racing in F1 is an example of how F1 is approaching decisions differently under its new management. “We’re looking at a total solution, a holistic solution of all the parts. We know the percentage drop in performance that comes as a car approaches another car and already we’ve found ways of improving that in reducing the disturbed flor from the car from the front and reducing the sensitivity of the following car to that disturbed flow. “We’re trying to do it in a properly structured way. That will be the solution we’ll apply for 2021. And anything we can learn in the meantime which we feel is safe and fair and correct to apply will be done. “But I think it’s critical that we take this opportunity to [make] – what we call in Formula One – evidence-based decisions. So let’s make a decision based on proper evidence: how do we get that evidence, how do we get that information analysis done so we can at least make a decision based on some work? “That’s how a Formula One team works, why shouldn’t Formula One as a sport work that way rather than making knee-jerk, compulsive, non-instinctive decisions and reactive decisions rather than properly structured decisions.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Ross Brawn makes it sound like this is a brand new sport and a brand new issue starting from ground zero. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodders Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 Questions for McLaren Andrew Benson BBC Sport’s chief F1 writer in Bahrain Gasly in a Toro Rosso-Honda is P9, nearly 0.4secs quicker than Alonso in a McLaren-Renault, P13. Cost of switching engines a net approx $100m. How are McLaren going to explain that away? Christ. What a day. Well done McLaren. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Rodders said: Questions for McLaren Andrew Benson BBC Sport’s chief F1 writer in Bahrain Gasly in a Toro Rosso-Honda is P9, nearly 0.4secs quicker than Alonso in a McLaren-Renault, P13. Cost of switching engines a net approx $100m. How are McLaren going to explain that away? Christ. What a day. Well done McLaren. Looks like a hell of an own goal as it stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leemond2008 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 Where is Hamilton starting tomorrow after his penalty? is he about 8th? Verstappen went flying off in the first qualifier didn't he, starting in 15th place, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brommy Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 14 hours ago, leemond2008 said: Where is Hamilton starting tomorrow after his penalty? is he about 8th? Verstappen went flying off in the first qualifier didn't he, starting in 15th place, Qualified 4th, 5 place penalty, starting 9th. Still think he'll be aiming for a podium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 3 hours ago, brommy said: Qualified 4th, 5 place penalty, starting 9th. Still think he'll be aiming for a podium. He should be, but Bottas struggled last time to come through the pack so we’ll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted April 8, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted April 8, 2018 This is my first race watching in UHD. It looks phenomenal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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