Formula One - 2018

[Kuwabatake Sanjuro]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

So I have a question about the Virtual Safety Car. I haven't followed F1 too closely the last couple of years so not quite sure of the rule.

 

When Vettel got ahead of Hamilton, the commentators (Channel 4) seemed bemused as to how he'd got ahead and put it down to the burst of speed Vettel would have had entering the pitlane, which didn't seem to add up to me.

To me it was more obvious. They were obviously lapping at a pace where if vettel pitted, he'd come out behind Hamilton. They said pitting was about a 23 second delay. So if Hamilton was lapping say 15 seconds behind vettel, he'd overtake him while Vettel was in the pits.

When the VSC happened, they all got limited to a set speed limit right? Obviously far slower than race pace. So now all of a sudden that 15 second gap that Vettel had is actually a 30 second gap (not exact numbers, I'm simplifying) because when vettel pits Hamilton is going significantly slower so it takes him longer to make up the distance.

 

Have I got that wrong? The commentators didn't seem to suggest that, which seemed like the obvious reason Vettel leapfrogged Hamilton, which makes me think I don't understand the rule properly.

The modern day F1 commentator is usually extremely dim witted for some reason. Murray Walker had his brain farts but would never have been as stupid as the current generation.

[Stevo985]

1 minute ago, Kuwabatake Sanjuro said:

The modern day F1 commentator is usually extremely dim witted for some reason. Murray Walker had his brain farts but would never have been as stupid as the current generation.

Yeah I was amused when one of the C4 commentators was correctly observing that with how much Hamilton was easing off at the end, Raikonnen was going to catch up to him before the end of the race.

Then about 3 laps later Coulthard excitedly made the same observation. The first guy talked about it for about a minute so Coulthard had obviously totally switched off for that time  

[Lichfield Dean]

3 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

So I have a question about the Virtual Safety Car. I haven't followed F1 too closely the last couple of years so not quite sure of the rule.

 

When Vettel got ahead of Hamilton, the commentators (Channel 4) seemed bemused as to how he'd got ahead and put it down to the burst of speed Vettel would have had entering the pitlane, which didn't seem to add up to me.

To me it was more obvious. They were obviously lapping at a pace where if vettel pitted, he'd come out behind Hamilton. They said pitting was about a 23 second delay. So if Hamilton was lapping say 15 seconds behind vettel, he'd overtake him while Vettel was in the pits.

When the VSC happened, they all got limited to a set speed limit right? Obviously far slower than race pace. So now all of a sudden that 15 second gap that Vettel had is actually a 30 second gap (not exact numbers, I'm simplifying) because when vettel pits Hamilton is going significantly slower so it takes him longer to make up the distance.

 

Have I got that wrong? The commentators didn't seem to suggest that, which seemed like the obvious reason Vettel leapfrogged Hamilton, which makes me think I don't understand the rule properly.

Your explanation is the one that occurred to me as well - the speed differential between the pit lane limited speed and the track speed is obviously dramatically different under VSC conditions. That is why Lewis ended up behind Vettel.

[Stevo985]

4 minutes ago, Lichfield Dean said:

Your explanation is the one that occurred to me as well - the speed differential between the pit lane limited speed and the track speed is obviously dramatically different under VSC conditions. That is why Lewis ended up behind Vettel.

It seems like such an obvious explanation but nobody seems to have sussed it.

Saw an article this morning and the headline was something like "Did a software glitch allow Vettel to leapfrog Hamilton?"

NO! Surely they're overcomplicating it?

Edited March 26, 2018 by Stevo985

[Genie]

Its often a shorter route to go via the pits too. 

[VillaJ100]

The thing is Hamilton benefited a lot from  VSC and SC in the early part of last season but it was all 'good strategy' then. 

 

[Genie]

One thing I’ve noticed about F1 these last few years is that commentators are obviously aware it can be pretty uneventful so just make shit up to make it more exciting,  even when they know something isn’t going to happen, they’ll put their excitied voice on.

Thursday and Friday it was all talk of the wet race on the Sunday... barely a cloud in the sky all day. 

Edited March 26, 2018 by Genie

[LakotaDakota]

Don't like the new graphics with the huge permanent leaderboard taking up about 1/6 of the screen and the onboard shots look crap with the halo.

Other than that is was pretty much same as usual for Australia with not much happening other than a few breakdowns/reliability issues. Unless there is a pile-up at the first corner the race is usually pretty much a procession.

[brommy]

7 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

It seems like such an obvious explanation but nobody seems to have sussed it.

Saw an article this morning and the headline was something like "Did a software glitch allow Vettel to leapfrog Hamilton?"

NO! Surely they're overcomplicating it?

I believe the issue was that Mercedes had calculated, at the time that Vettel was still to pit, that Hamilton was leading by just enough time that if Vettel pitted during a VSC he would rejoin the track just behind Hamilton.

[mykeyb]

How much faster would the VSC delta need to be to nullify the overtake from the pits, as long as it wouldn't be massively dangerous that's what they should do.

[brommy]

7 hours ago, Genie said:

One thing I’ve noticed about F1 these last few years is that commentators are obviously aware it can be pretty uneventful so just make shit up to make it more exciting,  even when they know something isn’t going to happen, they’ll put their excitied voice on.

Similarly, In snooker commentary, John Virgo has a habit of yelling "WHERE'S THE CUE BALL GOING?!", when 4 times out of 5 it's obvious that the cue ball is NOT going in to the pocket. It doesn't speak well for the excitement of watching F1 when it can be compared with watching snooker.

[mikeyp102]

20 minutes ago, mykeyb said:

How much faster would the VSC delta need to be to nullify the overtake from the pits, as long as it wouldn't be massively dangerous that's what they should do.

They said on the c4 highlights that a pit stop at under vsc saves 10 seconds compared to a usual pit stop

Edited March 26, 2018 by mikeyp102

[villakram]

No position changes should be allowed under VSC. A simple rule change fixes this. On track performance should be required. Let's show how useless these massive vacuum cleaners are for overtaking.

[BOF]

On 25/03/2018 at 21:06, Stevo985 said:

It's annoying to have two monumental arseholes as the top 2.

West Ham fans like this.

[BOF]

On 26/03/2018 at 09:08, Stevo985 said:

When Vettel got ahead of Hamilton, the commentators (Channel 4) seemed bemused as to how he'd got ahead and put it down to the burst of speed Vettel would have had entering the pitlane, which didn't seem to add up to me.

To me it was more obvious. They were obviously lapping at a pace where if vettel pitted, he'd come out behind Hamilton. They said pitting was about a 23 second delay. So if Hamilton was lapping say 15 seconds behind vettel, he'd overtake him while Vettel was in the pits.

When the VSC happened, they all got limited to a set speed limit right? Obviously far slower than race pace. So now all of a sudden that 15 second gap that Vettel had is actually a 30 second gap (not exact numbers, I'm simplifying) because when vettel pits Hamilton is going significantly slower so it takes him longer to make up the distance.

Have I got that wrong? The commentators didn't seem to suggest that, which seemed like the obvious reason Vettel leapfrogged Hamilton, which makes me think I don't understand the rule properly.

You've got it right and it has now come out that it WAS a software error (bad maths) that cost Lewis the victory because he was being told that his 15 second deficit to Vettel would be enough to cover a VSC, when in fact he needed to be within 10 to allow for the slower speeds.  The annoying thing for him was that 10 seconds was easily achievable had he known it was required  

[brommy]

5 hours ago, BOF said:

You've got it right and it has now come out that it WAS a software error (bad maths) that cost Lewis the victory because he was being told that his 15 second deficit to Vettel would be enough to cover a VSC, when in fact he needed to be within 10 to allow for the slower speeds.  The annoying thing for him was that 10 seconds was easily achievable had he known it was required  

Yep. It caused quite an argument between Brackley and Brixworth on Monday!

[Genie]

7 hours ago, BOF said:

You've got it right and it has now come out that it WAS a software error (bad maths) that cost Lewis the victory because he was being told that his 15 second deficit to Vettel would be enough to cover a VSC, when in fact he needed to be within 10 to allow for the slower speeds.  The annoying thing for him was that 10 seconds was easily achievable had he known it was required  

Not sure he could have just turned on a 5 second reduction like that?

It was a glitch/bad calculation plus unfortunate timing (from Merc point of view) for sure.

[leemond2008]

The thing that I don' understand is how this software glitch affected the outcome?

So they miscalculated how far behind Vettel was but what could Hamilton have done about it, I thought you could only drive at a certain speed when the VSC is on the track, was Hamilton just tootling along not watching his speed?

[Genie]

34 minutes ago, leemond2008 said:

The thing that I don' understand is how this software glitch affected the outcome?

So they miscalculated how far behind Vettel was but what could Hamilton have done about it, I thought you could only drive at a certain speed when the VSC is on the track, was Hamilton just tootling along not watching his speed?

I think the suggestion is that Hamilton didn’t go at full speed before the VSC because he was told he only needed to maintain the current gap and Vettel would come out behind him when he pitted. 

Their pit stops were about 6 laps apart so I don’t believe Hamilton easily had ~1 second a lap in his pocket to turn on if needed.

As you have said, even without the glitch I think the outcome would have been the same. 

[brommy]

On 30/03/2018 at 07:08, Genie said:

I think the suggestion is that Hamilton didn’t go at full speed before the VSC because he was told he only needed to maintain the current gap and Vettel would come out behind him when he pitted. 

Their pit stops were about 6 laps apart so I don’t believe Hamilton easily had ~1 second a lap in his pocket to turn on if needed.

As you have said, even without the glitch I think the outcome would have been the same. 

Before the virtual safety car, Brixworth (engine management) were constantly offering Brackley (car management) the option of more engine power to ensure when Vettel took the pit stop he needed, he would rejoin the track behind Hamilton. Brackley told Brixworth they didn't need the extra power being offered as Hamilton had enough of a gap, even under a VSC, that Vettel would rejoin behind Hamilton. Brackley miscalculated by a couple of seconds which was enough for Vettel to rejoin one second ahead of Hamilton. That was the cue for Brackley to demand Brixworth give maximum power, which they did, but because of the 'dirty air' encountered when following an F1 car with a ridiculous amount of permitted downforce, the extra power was not enough to enable Hamilton to regain the lead. During the last few laps, despite Brackley still demanding maximum power, Brixworth dialled down the power as it was clear that in dirty air and on this track, the Mercedes was not going to pass the Ferrari. This engine needs to last Mercedes another 6 races. There was no point increasing the risk of a failure in future races by giving maximum power when it wasn't going to win the race.

The miscalculation by Brackley cost Hamilton the race win. If Brackley had taken the option of more power before the VSC, Hamilton would have been a couple of seconds further up the track when Vettel rejoined, the Ferrari would have been stuck in the Mercedes dirty air and Brixworth could then have dialled down the power accordingly. Brixworth were not impressed with Brackley!

The solution is to reduce the amount of downforce the FIA allows. Set a maximum of one or two aero wings, instead of the half a dozen plus currently used, and the dirty air will be reduced enough for the faster car/driver to pass. I think the spectacle of overtaking trumps slightly faster cornering.

 

Edited March 31, 2018 by brommy
Text size correction.