Zatman Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 United best defender? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 2 hours ago, weedman said: His ability wasn't the issue though, it was his lack of physicality because he wasn't used to the standard of players he is up against now. "a few games at RB" haven't made him the player he is now (well, has been for 2 games which we all hope will continue). However he was consistently beaten in the air by much smaller players at the start of the season, now he's imposing himself and actually winning the ball, "a few games at RB" may absolutely have made that happen. Of course it would have happened at CB too, but that learning curve would have cost us far more goals while he got up to speed. Sorry, have to disagree with you. There was a 1st team game he featured in last season for Man Utd iirc where he had Cesc Fabregas in his pocket for the entire game and even then he looked like he had been playing the game for years. All this RB thing is complete shit and it was not benefiting him in anyway - more a case of rather he was becoming a scapegoat to a few and confidence dipping while at RB. SB spouting "He can play anywhere across the back four". Hell, he could play anywhere on the pitch - don't mean he would be good in that said position! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weedman Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 7 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said: Sorry, have to disagree with you. There was a 1st team game he featured in last season for Man Utd iirc where he had Cesc Fabregas in his pocket for the entire game and even then he looked like he had been playing the game for years. All this RB thing is complete shit and it was not benefiting him in anyway - more a case of rather he was becoming a scapegoat to a few and confidence dipping while at RB. SB spouting "He can play anywhere across the back four". Hell, he could play anywhere on the pitch - don't mean he would be good in that said position! Cesc Fabregas, for all his qualities, isn't exactly Diego Costa on the physicality front is he? The next sentence in the post you just quoted I said playing games at RB hasn't made him a better player, but has helped him get up to speed with what is a physical league where strikers will bully you if they can, or words to that effect. You need different skills for different opponents, no good being able to defend superbly against Cesc Fabregas 1 game and being out muscled, bullied and run ragged by a Troy Deeney type the next. It wasn't even big brutes he was being beaten by either, he was being out jumped and out muscled by opposition wingers, he was pretty much run ragged in the cup against a league 1 or 2 side (can't remember which!) - and he was at CB in that one! The world we live in now is built on instant gratification so it can be hard to accept that these things take time but they do. The step up from youth football to men's football is technically not a huge jump, but physically it's enormous, that's why most of the young prospects that break through are either incredibly gifted, or big and strong for their age. Look at the difference in performances between RHM and Davis, by all accounts RHM is far superior technically, but Davis is the one who's actually made an impact on our first team as despite his lesser ability, he can cope with the physicality of the league. Andre Green looked amazing in friendlies, before immediately looking like a competition winner in league matches and had to go to league 2 to get football Tuanzebe is a big guy, he's got the size to compete, but he'd never really had to use it before this season as his technical skill and speed was more than enough at the level he was used to Apologies, I seem to have rambled on a bit there but I'm trying to avoid doing too much work this afternoon 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 4 hours ago, Zatman said: United best defender? I don't think so. Bailly when he is on form is incredible defender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 Starting to look a class player, so composed and reads the game well. Actually thought he was better than Chester all in all yesterday but Chester had two game changing moments. Probably been said to death but a real damning indictment on Bruce to play him at **** RB especially as it meant playing a CM at CB in his place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 9 hours ago, weedman said: His ability wasn't the issue though, it was his lack of physicality because he wasn't used to the standard of players he is up against now. "a few games at RB" haven't made him the player he is now (well, has been for 2 games which we all hope will continue). However he was consistently beaten in the air by much smaller players at the start of the season, now he's imposing himself and actually winning the ball, "a few games at RB" may absolutely have made that happen. Of course it would have happened at CB too, but that learning curve would have cost us far more goals while he got up to speed I think the more plausible explanation is that he was playing in an unfamiliar position which led him to play in a way that he wouldn't normally in his preferred position. Defending at RB is a completely different beast o defending at CB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 8 hours ago, Zatman said: United best defender? Let’s not go nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weedman Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 2 hours ago, Keyblade said: I think the more plausible explanation is that he was playing in an unfamiliar position which led him to play in a way that he wouldn't normally in his preferred position. Defending at RB is a completely different beast o defending at CB. Certainly plausible, however he looked equally shaky in his (albeit limited) CB appearances prior to the last 2 games, and being put at RB rather than CB will not cause you to be out muscled and consistently beaten in the air against much smaller or weaker players. I know professional football is not comparable to the Saturday level that I played, however I'm 6'2 and broad, generally a goalkeeper however have filled in at LB, RB, LW and CF in my time and in every one of those positions my main strengths were still my main strengths, I still won most headers, still relied on strength to shield or win the ball etc, I didn't forget how to head the ball when I was put in at LB rather than RB, a tricky 5'4 winger didn't start barging me off the ball because I was playing away from my natural position. Being out of position causes mistakes for sure, but being bullied and beaten easily isn't down to position. Mile Jedinak continued to win everything in the air when he was out of position, for example. I would also like to point out that I don't think the gamble paid off, as we were just as crap with Mile there (for different reasons) but I was simply offering what I'd consider to be a logical reason why he was played at RB in the first place and why he looked so rubbish at actual defending in the first few months, he certainly seems to be up to speed now, and if the performances of the last 2 games continue throughout the season he will have been an excellent loan signing 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted November 3, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted November 3, 2018 8 hours ago, AvfcRigo82 said: There was a 1st team game he featured in last season for Man Utd iirc where he had Cesc Fabregas in his pocket for the entire game and even then he looked like he had been playing the game for years. You don't recall correctly. He's never played against Chelsea for United's first team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted November 3, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted November 3, 2018 Didn't see the game yesterday but happy that his improved performances have continued. Happy to be proved wrong (so far) on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted November 4, 2018 Share Posted November 4, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, Stevo985 said: You don't recall correctly. He's never played against Chelsea for United's first team. My bad - it was Alexis Sanchez (Arsenal) that he had in his pocket* Well done for spotting the error. Edited November 4, 2018 by AvfcRigo82 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted November 4, 2018 Share Posted November 4, 2018 9 hours ago, weedman said: Certainly plausible, however he looked equally shaky in his (albeit limited) CB appearances prior to the last 2 games, and being put at RB rather than CB will not cause you to be out muscled and consistently beaten in the air against much smaller or weaker players. I know professional football is not comparable to the Saturday level that I played, however I'm 6'2 and broad, generally a goalkeeper however have filled in at LB, RB, LW and CF in my time and in every one of those positions my main strengths were still my main strengths, I still won most headers, still relied on strength to shield or win the ball etc, I didn't forget how to head the ball when I was put in at LB rather than RB, a tricky 5'4 winger didn't start barging me off the ball because I was playing away from my natural position. Being out of position causes mistakes for sure, but being bullied and beaten easily isn't down to position. Mile Jedinak continued to win everything in the air when he was out of position, for example. I would also like to point out that I don't think the gamble paid off, as we were just as crap with Mile there (for different reasons) but I was simply offering what I'd consider to be a logical reason why he was played at RB in the first place and why he looked so rubbish at actual defending in the first few months, he certainly seems to be up to speed now, and if the performances of the last 2 games continue throughout the season he will have been an excellent loan signing This is a good post. He has improved as a player whether that be RB or Centre half. But it is possible that he feels a lot more confident in his natural position hence improving so much. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killeen30 Posted November 4, 2018 Share Posted November 4, 2018 19 hours ago, Zatman said: United best defender? Yes defo, he’s possibly one of the best defenders in the world... Seriously though, I’m a more serious note, I’ve been impressed by his last two games! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eholm Posted November 4, 2018 Share Posted November 4, 2018 A Rolls-Royce of a CB. Rarely flustered, good reader of the game and very comfortable on the ball. Reminds me of a young Rio Ferdinand. Excellent prospect. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted November 4, 2018 Share Posted November 4, 2018 13 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said: Let’s not go nuts. Was more joking after watching another classic United defensive show yesterday 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted November 4, 2018 Share Posted November 4, 2018 17 minutes ago, Zatman said: Was more joking after watching another classic United defensive show yesterday In all seriousness it would be good if we had a clause to buy him but I think we managed to secure the loan before the new owners came in so unlikely. He has a big future ahead of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted November 4, 2018 Moderator Share Posted November 4, 2018 Future England CB in my view, I think he go on to have a very good career sadly unlikely to be with us I’d imagine. He was utterly wasted at RB as just about every single Villa fan knew. I actually think he is better than Chester. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyexists Posted November 4, 2018 Author VT Supporter Share Posted November 4, 2018 (edited) 25 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: Future England CB in my view, I think he go on to have a very good career sadly unlikely to be with us I’d imagine. He was utterly wasted at RB as just about every single Villa fan knew. I actually think he is better than Chester. Or at least more consistent so far at CB. Chester can be fantastic and he can be average, sometimes all in one game. Early days but Axel seems very good at CB. It does make it all the more baffling that Steve Bruce, a manager known for being defensively minded, and a former defender for a huge club, couldn’t see that he is best at CB and that Jedinak was poor there. (Sorry to keep banging that drum as I know it’s been banged sufficiently). Edited November 4, 2018 by alreadyexists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted November 4, 2018 Share Posted November 4, 2018 2 hours ago, Killeen30 said: Yes defo, he’s possibly one of the best defenders in the world... Seriously though, I’m a more serious note, I’ve been impressed by his last two games! He will be one of the best CB's in the world one day that is for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sir_gary_cahill Posted November 4, 2018 Share Posted November 4, 2018 Been very impressed with him at centre back, he’s never a right back, maybe in emergencies. He reads the game well for me as well as having blistering pace, you can see why he’s played for Man Utd in Premier League Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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