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The Video Assistant Referee (VAR)


Stevo985
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37 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

Any goal can get chalked off for an infraction, this was true even before VAR. 

I don’t want to do the whole debate but this is the argument that really gets me.

Yes, , even before VAR goals could get chalked off. We all know that.

But it happened at the time. So, take Mings goal. Pre VAR it goes in....we glance at Lino, we celebrate....practically instantaneous.

Our disallowed goal. We start to celebrate...flag is up, we stop. They cheer. That’s it.

With VAR neither set of supporters could react instantly to either incident. 
As I say, if you are in the ground, that’s NOT the same as pre VAR. Every single person was moaning about it.

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13 minutes ago, terrytini said:

I don’t want to do the whole debate but this is the argument that really gets me.

Yes, , even before VAR goals could get chalked off. We all know that.

But it happened at the time. So, take Mings goal. Pre VAR it goes in....we glance at Lino, we celebrate....practically instantaneous.

Our disallowed goal. We start to celebrate...flag is up, we stop. They cheer. That’s it.

With VAR neither set of supporters could react instantly to either incident. 
As I say, if you are in the ground, that’s NOT the same as pre VAR. Every single person was moaning about it.

That's just one scenario. Offside is a relatively instantaneous process so it's not the best example. 

Goals that involve other kinds of infractions, typically spotted by a linesman and communicated to the ref via headset could also be chalked off before VAR and they could take some time, as long as the average offside check at least. A push in the box, a handball etc. Right now, the infringing player would hesitate to celebrate because he knows his infraction, though missed by the ref, is up for review by VAR. And honestly, what's wrong with that? If it leads to a more fair game, what does it matter whether you're able to celebrate dodgy goals? (Whether it's actually currently leading to a fair game is another discussion, and one worth having).

I mean, why not remove the linesmen entirely then to make us even more assured in our celebrations. No need to even glance at a linesman anymore and ruin the celebrations...just leave it all up to the ref. Sure that means that offside decisions will be way more inaccurate, but we can all celebrate more, and more confidently right? 

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Has the game improved?

Has it become fairer?

Is it fun to sit and wait for 3 minutes to see if the tip of the nose was offside or not? Does it make sense?

For me it's a no on all those questions. The implementation of it has been too bad and it's still humans making the decisions so it's not become that much more accurate. It seems to be there more to help the "big" clubs than make it fair. Take arsenal this weekend. They got a penalty against norwich which Krul saved, but it was VAR.checked and it turned out to be a few norwich players in the pen area too early so they decided it to be retaken. Perhaps nothing wrong with that, but when arsenal had a penalty against us several arsenal players were over the line too early without it being checked.

And then there's this "clear and obvious" thing. They can scratch that right now, 'cause most times it's about checking every f**king detail. And they still don't get everything right. Take Hourihane's goal against brighton. Was that a foul by Wes on their keeper? Was it f**k. He barely touched him. An allowed goal that was disallowed thanks to VAR though it was nothing to call for.

And then there's the insecurity about how it works. Like our goal against palace. VAR couldn't check it because that stupid ref had blown the whistle. But still they went out and said they had checked it but to see if it was a penalty, not if the decision to call for a dive was correct. Which it obviously wasn't. Still, some take that as meaning that they checked if it was vorrect to call for a dive and that VAR had worked and the ref was right.

And then there's the celebration. No, I don't hesitate to celebrate afraid of looking silly. I don't celebrate because of the uncertainty if there is anything to celebrate for. Grealish's goal I celebrated as it was such a stunning goal. But there are so many goals I haven't been celebrating as I haven't known if it was a doal or not. Before VAR we knew within seconds if it was allowed or not, and it wasn't very often it was disallowed. These days there are very few goals that aren't checked and you have to wait. And even the players hesitate many times to see if it will be allowed. Even more so after some fully legit goals have been checked and disallowed.

And for the last. Yes, of course Iheacho knew that he was onside. I mean, there's no way he could miss that the defenders knee was a millimetre further down. That's just bs. He was lucky, but the call was right. And again, clear misstake by the linesman to call for offside... If he did. Unsure about that.

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Iheanacho scored a perfectly good late winning goal yesterday that, if it weren't for VAR would have not even counted. Interesting that there's no talk about that, or about the wildest celebrations of the weekend that came from Leicester after the goal was given by VAR. I thought we were all about celebrations 😢

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Just change the offside rule so the line is drawn against feet.  Peter Crouch v Alan Wright as an example of course someone taller is going to have parts of their body running in a forward motion further forward.  Is it fair to penalise people who are taller? All this shoulder knee bollocks pisses me off.

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19 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

Iheanacho scored a perfectly good late winning goal yesterday that, if it weren't for VAR would have not even counted. Interesting that there's no talk about that, or about the wildest celebrations of the weekend that came from Leicester after the goal was given by VAR. I thought we were all about celebrations 😢

You make some reasonable points....but I’m not interested in debating with someone who is intent on being sarcastic all the way through.

 

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24 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

Iheanacho scored a perfectly good late winning goal yesterday that, if it weren't for VAR would have not even counted. Interesting that there's no talk about that, or about the wildest celebrations of the weekend that came from Leicester after the goal was given by VAR. I thought we were all about celebrations 😢

Yes, it was a correct goal so they got it right and they celebrated necause of the timing of it, but that's a one off. Then again you can ask if it should've stood since it was scored at 93.37 and the added time was 3 minutes, but that's another question. Still, a one off. And the misstake wasn't very clear, was it?

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6 minutes ago, terrytini said:

You make some reasonable points....but I’m not interested in debating with someone who is intent on being sarcastic all the way through.

 

I was only sarcastic at the end ;) 

In all seriousness, it's just kind of exasperating that the debate around VAR is centered on this very subjective issue when there are so many other avenues to attack it from and tangible issues about it to discuss.

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9 minutes ago, Pelle said:

Yes, it was a correct goal so they got it right and they celebrated necause of the timing of it, but that's a one off. Then again you can ask if it should've stood since it was scored at 93.37 and the added time was 3 minutes, but that's another question. Still, a one off. And the misstake wasn't very clear, was it?

You realize that as a result of that decision, Leicester are still (tenuously) in a title race and have increased their lead on 5th place? The difference between 1 and 3 points can't be overstated. People lose their jobs on these fine margins. Marco Silva did.

I would happily sacrifice the spontaneity of celebrating the what, 20%, of dubious looking goals, if it were the difference between my team staying up, or getting into Europe or winning the title. Even if all it were was 1 decision on a single occasion, it'd be absolutely worth it. 

Forget that, I'd happily sacrifice that just to not be utterly screwed over by a lino like Iheanacho might have been. You look back after the game at that and see he was actually onside, you'd be absolutely fuming. All you needed to do was double check.

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24 minutes ago, Pelle said:

Yes, it was a correct goal so they got it right and they celebrated necause of the timing of it, but that's a one off. Then again you can ask if it should've stood since it was scored at 93.37 and the added time was 3 minutes, but that's another question. Still, a one off. And the misstake wasn't very clear, was it?

Most of the time lino does not call Grealish to be offside. It was a VERY good spot.

Not giving that to VAR would be bad and would lose Man U the game.

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55 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

I was only sarcastic at the end ;) 

In all seriousness, it's just kind of exasperating that the debate around VAR is centered on this very subjective issue when there are so many other avenues to attack it from and tangible issues about it to discuss.

I think the fact that its the subject of debate at all is pretty exasperating.....and the subject of chants lol !

I think most fans thought it was unsatisfactory that a Ref could make a decision incorrectly, and that everyone watching at home, and the 4th Official, and anyone in a Box, etc, could see it was wrong, but that nobody could tell him.

Somewhere along the way the powers that be have taken that one, once or twice a game problem, and ruined the spectacle.

For that reason, I’m out. 👍

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All this talk of accuracy, yet the biggest bug bear, the most cynically exploited issue, the most inconsistently applied concept, and one that affects games far more than other decisions, added on time/ time wasting......could be solved by a clock. That we could all see start and stop.

Yet, nothing.

Any chance that the thing that’s been brought in enhances the TV viewers experience, whereas the other would cause havoc with the Schedules ? 🤔

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11 hours ago, sne said:

VAR is like when people spray a dog in the face with water to stop it barking.

The celebration is a spontaneous thing, but after a while when you've been sprayed in the face by VAR enough times you just hesitate or stop. The impulse is changed.

And yes I think the fact you look a bit silly celebrating a goal that's scratched off also comes into it.

Haha, great analogy

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1 hour ago, Keyblade said:

You realize that as a result of that decision, Leicester are still (tenuously) in a title race and have increased their lead on 5th place? The difference between 1 and 3 points can't be overstated. People lose their jobs on these fine margins. Marco Silva did.

I would happily sacrifice the spontaneity of celebrating the what, 20%, of dubious looking goals, if it were the difference between my team staying up, or getting into Europe or winning the title. Even if all it were was 1 decision on a single occasion, it'd be absolutely worth it. 

Forget that, I'd happily sacrifice that just to not be utterly screwed over by a lino like Iheanacho might have been. You look back after the game at that and see he was actually onside, you'd be absolutely fuming. All you needed to do was double check.

He wouldn't have been screwn over. No, it wasn't offside, but the margin was the tiniest you can imagine. Even tinier than Terry. :) But it was a good example of when VAR works. What I meant was that it was bs from Iheanacho that he was so sure that he was onside when he in fact could've been ruled out just as easily. And then of course, due to that being the game deciding goal in OT the big celebrations came. Had it meant 3-1 the celebrations wouldn't be that big and lesser than it would've been had we not had VAR. But the celebrations is one of my least arguments. It's the way that it's used, the onconsitancy in how and when it's used. The things it brings and takes away from the game. For me it takes away more than it brings.

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2 hours ago, Mic09 said:

Most of the time lino does not call Grealish to be offside. It was a VERY good spot.

Not giving that to VAR would be bad and would lose Man U the game.

And win it for us, so I don't see a problem there. :) Seriously that was a good, although annoying, call. But the thing you quoted me on wasn't about that. It was about Iheanacho's goal against everton on which the linesman got the wrong decision but with the smallest of margins. But that call is pro VAR too.

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Was watching highlights of the 2004 CL final and it's astounding just from the short clip how many bad offside calls were made. On the biggest stage in club football. I bet the Monaco fans were fuming that day. Made me wonder how much of history would have changed if VAR were implemented earlier. Good idea for a football show to explore.

 

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I absolutely agree with much of the dismay at VAR, having read this thread with an appropriately righteous grimace on many a day.  However, there are less 'visible' elements that VAR necessarily improves: Players can no longer get away with nonsense.  Less pulling and pushing at corners, less diving, fewer attempts to 'play' the referee, and so on.  Whilst in itself this is a good thing it also has the knock-on effect of obliging players to actually focus on playing the game rather than 'gaming' the game.

It could be because my beloved Villa's rise has reinvigorated my love of the game (or the vigour of that love anyway), but, of late, I get a greater sense of football as the kind of noble enterprise us blokes lovingly endow spectator sports with.  Character and will in individual players seem to have made a comeback in my appreciation.  Admiration, even.  Again, maybe I'm just excited to be experiencing Proper Big Boy Football again after too many seasons in the relative bouncy castle leagues, and maybe it's those ravishing HD projections and ultra-honed 2019 specimen footballers, but I feel VAR's increasing 'automation' of decision-making has sorta maybe kinda focused the minds of players on actually winning through skill and intelligence and perseverance, rather than, you know, 'the dark arts' and so on.

The biggest issue I currently have is with the inconsistency.  I feel blaming 'big decisions' on losses is often a pretty empty cry (why didn't you just do the football better more of the time?) and great teams SHOULD be able to surpass frustrations and obstacles.  However, the greater issue for me is the obvious uncertainty each player has with precisely what the rules are, leading to a hesitancy or a distraction that kinda muddies a real sense of involvement.  Games sometimes have a sense of players looking over their shoulders.

However, I genuinely think much of the frustration with VAR is the players themselves adapting to a new system.  There is nothing inherently lessening of the fibre of the game in this new regime.  Players simply have to, and will, adapt to, for example, a slightly delayed run past the last defender to beat an offside trap.  I don't think the obvious flaws right now are terminal.  I would even go so far as saying that once there's kind of a shared understanding between players and officials of how this is going to work players will exercise more caution around the rules leading to more free-flowing football.  My hope would be there will be less need for VAR, and less goddamn delays, as the players acclimatise to the new demands.

I appreciate we're not there yet, but it's important to keep a keen critical eye when comparing problems that are presented as inherent and inevitable versus genuine teething problems.  I don't think you can put the genie back in the bottle with VAR (or suchlike) so as technology and sport become increasingly entwined it would be wise to see the virtues of VAR if only because it will give us a greater vantage to make further necessary upgrades.

And then, if it's still shit we can storm Stockley park with torches and crowbars.

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17 hours ago, Keyblade said:

It's worth it for offsides, something so easily verifiable. All it takes is a second glance, something the linesman doesn't have the luxury of in the heat of the moment. That 1% could mean the difference between a team winning a title or getting relegated. What's the cost, not being sure if you can celebrate a goal that looks offside? Absolutely worth it.

Not sure how you can say that. Offsides are the biggest problem, its taking ages and they are still getting it wrong.

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7 hours ago, Shomin Geki said:

However, there are less 'visible' elements that VAR necessarily improves: Players can no longer get away with nonsense.  Less pulling and pushing at corners, less diving, fewer attempts to 'play' the referee, and so on.  Whilst in itself this is a good thing it also has the knock-on effect of obliging players to actually focus on playing the game rather than 'gaming' the game.

Hmm, I'm not sure I agree with that I don't think I've seen a reduction tbh, maybe even an increase. The likes of Kane, Mane and Salah have been diving like crazy all season.

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