Zatman Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 The main issues with VAR is the referees organisation and the disgrace that is the offside rule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 Just now, Zatman said: The main issues with VAR is the referees organisation and the disgrace that is the offside rule I think scrapping it for offside checks would be a good start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted December 2, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted December 2, 2019 22 minutes ago, Mic09 said: It's an argument used against VAR, the way I see it anyway there's no question people are using it against VAR. the amount of times i've seen something along the lines of "scrap it, it's killing the emotion of celebrating a goal" when it's actually down to the individuals whether they celebrate or not. no one is chucking out of the ground if you celebrate when you're not supposed to. players are not going to be penalized if they celebrate then their goal is disallowed. you choose to celebrate or you choose not to. it's up to the individual. if people want VAR to ruin the enjoyment of the game for them then that's up to them. i'm going to carry on...even if it means i'm on my own jumping around like an idiot when the 41,999 others are sitting around waiting for the goal to be given Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 2 hours ago, Mic09 said: Yeah, I don't get the no celebration argument. If it's offside, handball, illegal goal, why would you celebrate in the first place? I bet you most players know if the goal is good anyway. ElGhazi was clearly on side the other week. Why do fans question if they should celebrate just because he didn't run 50 yards with his shirt off? Iheanacho is a good example. He celebrated his goal and he said he wasn't worried about the VAR check because he knew he was onside. The only thing stopping players from celebrating is accountability. They know they won't get away with illegal goals like they used to. So if they think they're offside or they handled the ball they won't celebrate. And that's completely on them to be honest. You never know, you might actually be onside, so celebrate anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted December 2, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted December 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, Keyblade said: Iheanacho is a good example. He celebrated his goal and he said he wasn't worried about the VAR check because he knew he was onside. The only thing stopping players from celebrating is accountability. They know they won't get away with illegal goals like they used to. So if they think they're offside or they handled the ball they won't celebrate. And that's completely on them to be honest. You never know, you might actually be onside, so celebrate anyway. i think that might have been the case for mings, that he was convinced he was offside so didnt celebrate. he probably couldnt believe the space he had so assumed it to be too good to be true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, tomav84 said: i think that might have been the case for mings, that he was convinced he was offside so didnt celebrate. he probably couldnt believe the space he had so assumed it to be too good to be true Yeah. It was the same for El Ghazi last week. I initially thought it was because he thought he didn't touch it, but I realize it was because he thought he was offside. The question is, do we prefer offside decisions to be correct, or do we want to celebrate goals willy nilly, something we aren't even prevented from doing anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, Keyblade said: The question is, do we prefer offside decisions to be correct, or do we want to celebrate goals willy nilly, something we aren't even prevented from doing anyway. Should be a balance, at end of day most people talk about VAR than the actual football this season. I cant bring myself to watch other games this season only Villa as it has ruined the game and even yesterday I didnt bother due to this VAR bullshit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 1 minute ago, Zatman said: Should be a balance, at end of day most people talk about VAR than the actual football this season. I cant bring myself to watch other games this season only Villa as it has ruined the game and even yesterday I didnt bother due to this VAR bullshit Did you not bother to watch because of VAR bullshit? What if there was no VAR decisions and we won 3-0 with a hat trick of McGinns 30 yard screamers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted December 2, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted December 2, 2019 25 minutes ago, Keyblade said: The question is, do we prefer offside decisions to be correct, or do we want to celebrate goals willy nilly, something we aren't even prevented from doing anyway. you answered your own question. you can have both. i dont see why people feel that they cant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 31 minutes ago, tomav84 said: you answered your own question. you can have both. i dont see why people feel that they cant I think what it is, is that people and players want to be able to celebrate without the cloud of doubt looming over them. To that I say, it's not even most goals that are affected by this already. Grealish wasn't worried about celebrating. Conor went crazy after his goal last week etc. It's really only the blatantly dubious goals. The fact that players are so hesitant to celebrate these goals shows that VAR is doing its job, for offsides at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Keyblade said: The question is, do we prefer offside decisions to be correct, or do we want to celebrate goals willy nilly, something we aren't even prevented from doing anyway. Pre-VAR decisions were about 97/98% correct (there was some data few pages back). Even with VAR there are mistakes being made, controversy, delays and ruining of the best part of the game. So all this crap we get with VAR is to increase the accuracy of decisions by around 1%. Not worth it imo. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 12 minutes ago, Genie said: Pre-VAR decisions were about 97/98% correct (there was some data few pages back). Even with VAR there are mistakes being made, controversy, delays and ruining of the best part of the game. So all this crap we get with VAR is to increase the accuracy of decisions by around 1%. Not worth it imo. It's worth it for offsides, something so easily verifiable. All it takes is a second glance, something the linesman doesn't have the luxury of in the heat of the moment. That 1% could mean the difference between a team winning a title or getting relegated. What's the cost, not being sure if you can celebrate a goal that looks offside? Absolutely worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, Keyblade said: It's worth it for offsides, something so easily verifiable. All it takes is a second glance, something the linesman doesn't have the luxury of in the heat of the moment. That 1% could mean the difference between a team winning a title or getting relegated. What's the cost, not being sure if you can celebrate a goal that looks offside? Absolutely worth it. But it's not even clear they are getting offsides correct. The technology is not precise enough and the points on the body and pitch where they draw the lines are iffy and ambiguous. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 1 minute ago, sne said: But it's not even clear they are getting offsides correct. The technology is not precise enough and the points on the body and pitch where they draw the lines are iffy and ambiguous. I don't think they should even be drawing all those extra lines. This is where clear and obvious comes in. Like Grealish's offside yesterday. Credit to the linesman, he got that right. But it must have been incredibly hard to see in real time. It was only his foot that was offside after all. Let's say he got it wrong, which given the circumstances is very conceivable. I would absolutely want VAR to correct that. All it takes is a glance. Someone who learned about the sport last week would be able to tell you at a glance that he was offside. The current implementation of VAR takes it overboard with their measuring of collarbones and such. But that doesn't mean it still can't be useful. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 3 hours ago, Keyblade said: Yeah. It was the same for El Ghazi last week. I initially thought it was because he thought he didn't touch it, but I realize it was because he thought he was offside. The question is, do we prefer offside decisions to be correct, or do we want to celebrate goals willy nilly, something we aren't even prevented from doing anyway. I want to celebrate goals. Whether something is proved to be correct or not is for the stats fan-boys. You say "not prevented from doing anyway" - a goal celebration isn't something you practice, it can be unique every time, your reaction to witnessing a goal can't (or shouldn't) be trained/conditioned, it should be a total outpouring of emotion (for goals that really matter anyway). I think the yes or no debate on VAR is quite telling in how people support football now, for many it's just numbers on spreadsheets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: I want to celebrate goals. Whether something is proved to be correct or not is for the stats fan-boys. You say "not prevented from doing anyway" - a goal celebration isn't something you practice, it can be unique every time, your reaction to witnessing a goal can't (or shouldn't) be trained/conditioned, it should be a total outpouring of emotion (for goals that really matter anyway). I think the yes or no debate on VAR is quite telling in how people support football now, for many it's just numbers on spreadsheets. Honestly, I'm not the one who brought the stats into it. For me, the infuriating feeling of a clearly offside or onside goal not being called correctly and costing your team points greatly outweighs the uncertainty of knowing whether a goal counts and whether I should celebrate it. There's really nothing holding you back from celebrating if that's so important anyway. Just celebrate every goal like it would be given. Any goal can get chalked off for an infraction, this was true even before VAR. I bet England fans wouldn't have minded a quick VAR check of Maradona's goal in '86. And I bet if VAR was there, Maradona wouldn't have been celebrating so exuberantly. But I guess him not being able to celebrate a dodgy goal as confidently would have been a greater travesty than him scoring an illegal goal that knocked out another team from the competition if I'm understanding the gist of these arguments correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny_Villaman84 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 (edited) I think we should keep var offside only if it is cause goal only applied if referee ask linesman if he clear to offside so linesman and ref if except they not correct as it was very clear offside VAR Step in and stop them to make them stop mistake called, or not if lineman say 50-50 by inch offside or not offside rather VAR keep go forward and backward, and change angle to see if it was offside or not, so referee have to call VAR or make a his call regard offside or not, and players will have to accept this so to help game feel like smooth and can celebrate goal more rather wait for VAR Tell Referee that was offside. let ref to called offside with linesman help with optional not to call VAR or call to ask VAR to help direct to 3rd official who station at middle of bench who will check quick before ref running to and show him and debate about this as 3rd official is also professional ref more that lineman so make more better and strong calls. make games more better fluids - I would understand and support this system to right as i get fed up wait for var based not in the stadium to 3rd official and stadium got to wait for miles away to make called decide and take games so long. I was think about tweak bit rules about offside, maybe same rules in tennis Eagles Eyes - 3 challenge as manager can call challenge and Ref obligate to this and check if his called was wrong and right in anywhere ie foul or cards, pen even offside also ref must give reason he wont book or whatever ? as i get to feeling fed up solution like Billing (Brighton) and one player else i forget few weeks ago ref allowed him walk away, Newcastle player Push Grealish fall down, no even booked and again Peirera Yesterday, also Asrenal match. Edited December 2, 2019 by Danny_Villaman84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny_Villaman84 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 Other thing..I want to say about Offside Rules. Don't want you all think i moan about this (which actually i don't bother these yet it is make me itch to voice my opinion might your all same boat to this) - one specific area rules about offside - i often want see this change.. let me explain about this, for example Jack Grealish Offside yesterday? I Think it is should allowed as he toward to over the line last man then running back to get ball as he technical not active toward ball - it is not offside as he is not play for ball just after he reach over the last man and turn and running to ball, and offside called was point to his REAR ankle start soon as kick away - he were facing away from goal, also not in active toward ball, they should offside track if he "ACTIVE" phase (if it was reverse way he toward to goal it is offside as he active to toward goal i would understand this i could accept this) Also Whistle before goal or foul, whatever i think should be 5 seconds to see what phase lead to, as some time players was lost ball by foul and same as team who foul, he or teammate is win ball back toward to chance to likely to goal rather go back free kick with foul player he have right to call free kick or take advantage. this too applied suspect diving and feint injuring (beside head injury) can wait and go back to booking and (or with) disallowed with VAR support - like we vs Crystal Palace. these VAR System and Referee is actually affect on our result and table in end of season as VAR and Ref is cost us about 6 points would massive different if we bottom 5. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny_Villaman84 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 sorry if i put detail too much area and bored you about it as it complicated and complaint, crushing the feel about problem in football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 I won’t deny the logic of VAR, nor its statistical impact on the number of correct decisions. ..... I won’t deny their are sound, logical, arguments for keeping it. ....but I will 100% say it has affected adversely the enjoyment of attending a game. Massively. So it’s a simple question for me, which matters more. I suspect very strongly the answer will often (not always of course) be different for those who attend, versus those who watch on TV. Id ditch it tomorrow. It may well make things Righter, but so what ? (If we absolutely must retain it, it should be the 4th ( or 5th) Official, watching a monitor, who can only call the Ref over if, at the time something happens, and without replays, thinks the Ref has erred. That keeps the entire experience as close to what the fans in the ground are seeing as possible.) ....(and yes I know that has many pitfalls aswell, and might still adversely affect the watching of the game) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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