The Video Assistant Referee (VAR)

[Dr_Pangloss]

VAR is NOT improving the (English) game, the current implementation is making it worse, not better.

[Keyblade]

32 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

VAR is NOT improving the (English) game, the current implementation is making it worse, not better.

Wouldn't say it's making it worse, it's just not doing anything. It's being negated by the officials operating it. Only thing we got out of it right now is super precise offside calls...which is nice I guess? Hardly the main issue VAR was brought in for.

[PieFacE]

I've been very pro VAR, and I'll accept the fractional offside decisions providing VAR also improves the general poor decision making from refereees. Though, the two stonewall penalty shouts this weekend which VAR didn't rectify make me question the purpose of having it. If we're going to have poor decision making when it comes to penalties then we may as well just not bother with VAR and have the odd offside mistake too.

The only thing worse than a referee not giving a stonewall penalty is for it to then go to VAR and still not be given. What's the point?

Edited August 26, 2019 by PieFacE

[penguin]

VAR isn’t the issue it’s the implementation.

The whole reason for its existence, to limit human error, is the reason it’s been in my eyes a failure so far. I’m not sure what the answer is.

[ciggiesnbeer]

I watched all the Premier League games this weekend (blessed be the NBC Gold replays). Honestly I thought VAR worked well and improved the games to a huge degree. I noticed it also helped the referees with players moaning they just say "It was checked with VAR" and the player shuts up.

Obviously I am in a minority, which is fine, but I like it a lot.

Also not sure why Silva standing on a defenders foot then not getting a penalty is a problem, seemed like a good decision to me.

Edited August 26, 2019 by ciggiesnbeer

[Keyblade]

12 minutes ago, penguin said:

VAR isn’t the issue it’s the implementation.

The whole reason for its existence, to limit human error, is the reason it’s been in my eyes a failure so far. I’m not sure what the answer is.

Better training maybe. I wonder how it works in other leagues. It worked well in the World Cup and the CL last season which leads me to believe that it works better with better caliber officials.

[Five Ken McNaughts]

Personally, I am far from convinced by VAR. I cringed when it starting doing the preposterous "shoulder comparison" thing that led to a Sterling goal bring ruled out on the opening weekend at West Ham. Fans of both teams in the pub where I was watching had already agreed he was bang in line. Which he was. You have to wonder why a VAR panel should then feel the need to get involved, drawing their silly (and highly subjective) lines on the screen, trying to deconstruct the shoulder joint like an anatomy lesson. They desperately tried something similar for the fine Wolves goal against Man U before eventually giving up. I was heartened that Wesley's goal, and Pukki's this weekend for Norwich (both bang in line with the last man), were allowed to stand without the shoulder nonsense. However, if anyone happened to see the LASK v Brugge Champions League qualifier – where the VAR team got so confused by their own manipulation of the shoulder lines they presented two totally contradictory conclusions – you will realise that Alan Shearer's favourite mantra that "You can't argue with VAR on offsides" is pure Emperor's New Clothes stuff. It's not some advanced body sensor technology or a mythical oracle, Alan. Just blokes drawing lines on a screen and making complete prats of themselves at times.

[MrDuck]

2 hours ago, penguin said:

 I’m not sure what the answer is.

Kill it with fire and then let us never speak of it again.

[Davkaus]

8 hours ago, Keyblade said:

Wouldn't say it's making it worse, it's just not doing anything. It's being negated by the officials operating it. Only thing we got out of it right now is super precise offside calls...which is nice I guess? Hardly the main issue VAR was brought in for.

I'd argue that the current implementation is making things worse.

Very few benefits to it, and it has introduced delays and confusion. Which are both issues that could be mitigated or just lived with if it was a valuable contribution, but it currently isn't. 

8 hours ago, ciggiesnbeer said:

Also not sure why Silva standing on a defenders foot then not getting a penalty is a problem, seemed like a good decision to me.

That's literally the opposite of what happened.

[kurtsimonw]

AR needs to stay and is already improving the game. Unfortunately the human element is something that can not be changed, and that's the issue with it. Delays don't matter IMO. If it takes 10 minutes to come to a correct decision, then that's infinitely better than an incorrect decision that doesn't take any time.

Some of the reasoning are laughable. We had a last minute goal disallowed against Forest last season, I believe it was. I had absolutely no idea why it had been disallowed. Offside? Handball? Foul? No idea. Apparently that's okay. But if it was reviewed by VAR and I had no idea, apparently that's all VARs fault and it's ruining the game.

Edited August 27, 2019 by kurtsimonw

[Davkaus]

5 hours ago, kurtsimonw said:

AR needs to stay and is already improving the game. Unfortunately the human element is something that can not be changed, and that's the issue with it. 

I don't agree it's the human element that's the failing, if by that you mean that the var refs may also make mistakes. There's always going to be borderline cases you could argue either way about that some fans will be annoyed by. That's not what's happening here though. We're seeing absolutely blatant penalties not being given, and it seems like it's mostly due to this "clear and obvious mistake" nonsense. 

It's not a fault inherent to VAR, it's the PL trying to preserve the supremacy of the referee that's causing a lot of the complaints. 

[kurtsimonw]

34 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

I don't agree it's the human element that's the failing, if by that you mean that the var refs may also make mistakes. There's always going to be borderline cases you could argue either way about that some fans will be annoyed by. That's not what's happening here though. We're seeing absolutely blatant penalties not being given, and it seems like it's mostly due to this "clear and obvious mistake" nonsense. 

It's not a fault inherent to VAR, it's the PL trying to preserve the supremacy of the referee that's causing a lot of the complaints. 

That's a separate issue, though. Whether it be a rule, the wording of a rule, or a mistake due to human error - this isn't to do with VAR. 

It's like saying handballs in football are in issue. They aren't. Referees making mistakes, the hand ball rule or the wording of the rule are an issue. Handball is a necessity to keep the game fair, just like VAR.

 

[Davkaus]

@kurtsimonw I'm not sure if I made my point clear - I'm not saying you're wrong that VAR needs to stay. It should be a big asset to the game, and it absolutely should stay. What I am saying is that I disagree with your assertion that the main issue people have is the human element, and that we therefore should just shut up and put up with it, because it's always going to be an issue - you're right, the human element will never go away entirely.

I, however, think the main problem isn't the human element; it's the PL's shite implementation. This is something that can and should be changed, and IMO people should complain about it and point out the absurdity of the outcomes until the PL are publicly embarrassed enough to change their approach. 

The problem isn't necessarily "there are still lots of mistakes with VAR", as you rightly point out, those mistakes would still be there, VAR or not. For me, the problem is there are still lots of mistakes, and they're entirely avoidable mistakes that we're having to put up with due to the high benchmark the PL have decided is necessary to change a decision after reviewing VAR. There's the potential for them to massively improve the fairness of the game using this technology, and what they're doing so far simply isn't good enough. 

Edited August 27, 2019 by Davkaus

[sne]

So they rather get it wrong even with VAR then check the monitors and get it right. Because time.

Not sure halfassing it is the way to go if they're going to use it.

Quote

Referees ordered not to check VAR screens during matches after difficult introduction to the Premier League

• VAR has attracted controversy during the opening rounds of Premier League 
• Officials discouraged referees from checking pitch-side screens during games
• PGMOL would rather be criticised for too little intervention from the technology 

Premier League refereeing chiefs will resist calls for officials to start using their pitch-side monitors for VAR checks as they feel it will slow the game down too much.

The video referees came under fire on Sunday as fans claimed Manchester City and Tottenham were denied penalties. 

VAR neither overturned the referees’ decisions nor telling them to review the incident on their monitors

But English refereeing organisation PGMOL are determined not to rush into any knee-jerk reaction. 

They will stand by their current version of VAR, which is based on minimum interference.

Insiders say PGMOL would rather be criticised for using the technology too little than too much, but they are open to making changes to the system after they speak with top-flight clubs at a shareholders’ meeting in September. It is understood that many clubs are keen for VAR to be more heavily involved.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-7400363/Referees-ordered-not-check-VAR-screens-matches-difficult-introduction-Premier-League.html

Yeah I know, the Mail...

[bannedfromHandV]

It's almost as if it remains a game of opinions and perspective - even with technology.

Who'd have seen that coming.

[kurtsimonw]

Remember when VAR was going to be rubbish because it would mean there were no talking points? 

People just won't be happy until every decision is incorrect, because nothing beats a good whinge. 

[sne]

11 minutes ago, kurtsimonw said:

Remember when VAR was going to be rubbish because it would mean there were no talking points? 

People just won't be happy until every decision is incorrect, because nothing beats a good whinge. 

This was said by someone who never watched football or been on the internet or left his padded cell I assume?

[villa4europe]

I don't mind them not checking the screens, if you give the VAR ref the power to overturn decisions

that's how it should be

incident happens, pitch ref doesn't see it or waves play on or gives it, the buzzer on his arm goes off and tells him the correct decision, not "do you want to take another look" or "you might be wrong there" and never the pitch ref asking if he got it right, the VAR ref should be empowered to take control

[Mic09]

It just seems like it's a very simple principle that the Premier League are making very difficult 

[Mark Albrighton]

1 hour ago, sne said:

This was said by someone who never watched football or been on the internet or left his padded cell I assume?

There was definitely some taking that view, the article from 2017 below takes the opposite view that removing controversy would benefit post match discussion but acknowledged that there are some (Paul Ince is referenced) who think that incorrect decisions are the main thrust of football conversation.

This article suggests that there were some against the idea of VAR because “what would we talk about down the pub?”.

Quote

“Amid some criticism from pundits like Paul Ince, there did seem a slight sense of a post-game vacuum in the inability to get the managers talking about the decisions, given that there was nothing much to talk about. They were correct, and impressively quick, so on to the actual football.

That is a deeper point here, and another positive. That sense of a vacuum is probably just down to having to adjust, but it would be healthy for the entire game to adjust to a reality where refereeing decisions are not seen as the primary factor in every single result.”

....

“If you would rather discuss an offside call, rather than how it was a notional defensive midfielder Sergio Busquets could pull off the double pull-back pass that he did in the move that led to it - and why it is that more defensive midfielders can’t do this - then you’d have to wonder whether the game is really for you.”

Independent link

Articles and clips are proving difficult to find, but I have a memory of pundits like Paul Ince and Alan Shearer (I think) basically saying “If there are no wrong decisions, what is everyone going to talk about?”.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Shropshire Lad