Tomaszk Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 I wonder if the PL will adopt this bollocks of if the ball hits the hand, it's a penalty. Players and going to be scooping the ball up into hands all over the place. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 Another thing that pisses me off is the linesmen no longer flagging an offside, even though they know it’s offside. How long till a player picks up a nasty injury playing on when it was wasted effort anyway? Wait until it’s one of the big clubs star players. Killing the game. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 Pretty much how I see it in it's current form. Quote On VAR: Football should be poetry, not mathematics There was a lot of VAR action in the World Cup and Nations League this weekend. Many of us loathed it. Is it because of the delays for decisions? Is it the coitus interruptus to goal celebrations that the VAR check makes inevitable? Is it the shard of ice to the heart every time you hear the commentator’s words “there’s a VAR check going on”? Is it the fact that it in most cases it resolves little and arguments about ‘unnatural’ positions of arms continue regardless? Is it the crushing of spontaneity? Is it the players standing in position waiting to kick off after a goal but unable to do so as the referee has been told they’re still checking for an offside, or for a foul in the first phase of the goal move? Is it the palpable disappointed restlessness that washes over the crowd while this happens? Is it the frozen frame with a line drawn on it to show a player’s toe was offside and thus the goal has to be ruled out even though said toe did not give the player any advantage at all and could not have been spotted with the naked eye? Or is it the fact that even when it isn’t used, it still infects every minute of every game, forever in the shadows, like a bully just waiting to pounce? It might be some, all, or none of these that makes VAR unwelcome to so many of us, but for me, above and beyond all of these, it is the very principle behind VAR that is adrift from either sense or sensibility. There are two sides in this; those of us who see sport as a beautiful undefined, all-embracing expression of our flawed humanity, and those who see those flaws as a bad thing which must be ironed out with technology There is no compromising these two polar positions because they are not mere choices, they are expressions of who we are as people, each choice so tightly lashed into our sense of self that to defend it is to defend who you are as person. That’s why passions run high. There are plenty of people I hugely respect who are very pro-VAR. I totally see their point. It seems as innately right to them to try and get decisions correct in this way, as it seems innately wrong to me. We cannot persuade each other of the justness of our stance because they are born out of something deep within ourselves. Some suffer a cognitive dissonance with their brain telling them that getting the decision right is all important but their experience of this in reality robs away so much of what they loved about football. However, I do note that sometimes opposition to my opposition to all replay technology in all sports is very patronising, often assuming it is a knee jerk luddite attitude in contrast to their own thrusting fashionable modernism. They tell me I wouldn’t be against it in very specific extreme circumstances, such as awarding England a goal to win the World Cup, but my opposition is total and hey, England could just as likely win the World Cup without VAR by being awarded a goal when the ball hasn’t actually cross the line. The crucial thing to understand is that I and many others (of all ages) are simply philosophically against VAR, right? And we won’t be persuaded of its validity no matter how many different scenarios anyone likes to concoct to prove how good or successful it is. Similarly important to understand is that I do not care if VAR gets every decision right or gets them all wrong. I don’t care if it remains ridiculously clunky and time-consuming or becomes seamlessly integrated. It’s not about that, as horrible as the process currently is, it is about the principle. I simply do not want real-time sport paused to be inspected for mistakes. To me, that stops it being human and makes it more like a cold computer game, albeit a poor one where we’re forever waiting for the data to be processed by an overheating chip. The more we try to strip human failings out of sport, the less human it inevitably is. In other words I like imperfection and do not want technology to remove it. The variables of human adequacy, by officials, every bit as much as by players, is the key to the unpredictability of sport and thus to the excitement. I wholly and totally accept that wrong decisions will be occasionally made. It does not bother me at all. It is not a flaw and I don’t want it fixed. I’m also not sure that those who are so in love with the oft-repeated mantra of just ‘getting the decisions right’ understand fully what other evils have been released from opening this punishingly over-officious Pandora’s Box. Once you insist on VAR, you come up against a big problem: you cannot separate any moment in a football game from the last. It is an interrelated network of events each influenced and geared by the previous. So a wrongly awarded throw that leads to a goal 28 passes down the line is, in this authoritarian universe, an affront to fairness. Such a goal should be checked and disallowed, but right now it wouldn’t be. Yet VAR is nothing if it is not an absolutist religion. To restrict its use is to compromise the premise upon which its existence relies: the desire to get decisions right. So once you welcome VAR, how can you argue against the expansion of it? You can’t. It’s not a sustainable position to take because you’re going against your very own reasons for adopting VAR in the first place. When a goal is ruled out for offside by VAR but another goal is allowed because the contravention of a law happened in a phase not checked by VAR, the game’s result is actually distorted more by the technology, not made more correct. It is, in effect, an inherently contradictory model unless it is used for all decisions wherever and whenever they happen on the pitch or in the game, just to make sure they are right because any mistakes at all will affect the game. It cannot be otherwise. Once it comes into the Premier League you can be sure that managers will be quick to point out how limited use of VAR has produced an unfair outcome and that is why its use must be expanded. And they will be right. Once you buy into VAR that is the logical outcome. If you do not want that to be the case, you need to rethink your support for it now. If you’re pro-VAR, this is the horse you’ve chosen to ride and that is your destination. Football has been the most popular sport in the country for 120 years without VAR, most games will still not have it and will still pull bigger attendances in totality than the Premier League. VAR has only happened as a consequence of the intolerance of TV audiences to accept mistakes will happen and the moaning managers with a desire to lay off the blame for defeat on someone other than themselves. And it is happening because of the ceaseless berating of officials by fans, players and pundits, at least in the men’s game. I don’t believe that even the most pro-VAR person is having more fun because of its existence and fun is what football is about, remember? It is not about getting things right at all costs. Don’t give me the old ‘there’s so much money at stake…’ nonsense. This is sport, not accountancy. Sport is competition between humans, being officiated in the moment by other humans. All try and get things right in real time, but all accept they will never be perfect. That doesn’t ruin this or any other sport, rather that is the absolute intrinsic nature of it. To go against that is to go against being human and no good ever comes from such unnatural practices. If the game is worth any money, it is worth it because of the human fallibility at its core, not despite it. This is poetry, not mathematics. If you’re already sick of this now, imagine what it’ll be like when there are several VAR decisions in every game in every ten-match round of the Premier League. Next season the jackboot of camera lens absolutism will be on the public’s windpipe daring us to say it is wrong. But it is wrong. I hope those who wanted this will enjoy their top flight and international football more than they used to, but I doubt that any of us will. And here’s the biggest irony of all, although VAR only exists because of television, when introduced into the Premier League, only a small percentage of the interested audience will be even be watching, because football on paywall TV simply isn’t that popular. What on earth have we done to our beautiful game? John Nicholson https://www.football365.com/news/on-the-scourge-of-var-football-should-be-poetry-not-mathematics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 Superb piece, sums up all my thoughts and fears perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lichfield Dean Posted June 10, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2019 30 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: Superb piece, sums up all my thoughts and fears perfectly. Agreed. We should just stick to goal line technology imo. And even that I sometimes wish wasn't there because it takes away some of the excitement and talking points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post rodders0223 Posted June 10, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted June 10, 2019 Martin Tyler going mental yesterday after England's goal was disallowed for Wilson's blatant foul, then made a jibe every single incident that occured in the penalty area about VAR. It was a foul, it was a blatant foul, it was the correct decision. STFU you old word removed. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PieFacE Posted June 10, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2019 The worst argument against VAR is "Players will stop celebrating when they score a goal and will wait for VAR to approve it" ... no they won't. They'll only do that if they know they've done something they shouldn't have, to which it will likely and rightly be disallowed. Though, that didn't seem to even be the case for Wilson yesterday who would have known full well he fouled someone. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 (edited) VAR has been present for a few years in most European and World football. Why are we talking about it in the future tense? It has been proven it's working in Germany, France or Spain. Like I posted the other week, I have seen it live for the first time and yes, it has delayed an obvious decision. But I would rather have that then an incorrect goal scored. Edited June 10, 2019 by Mic09 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 10, 2019 Author VT Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2019 6 minutes ago, Mic09 said: VAR has been present for a few years in most European and World football. Why are we talking about it in the future tense? It has been proven it's working in Germany, France or Spain. Like I posted the other week, I have seen it life for the first time and yes, it has delayed an obvious decision. But I would rather have that then an incorrect goal scored. Give it two seasons and I bet nobody will be talking about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Give it two seasons and I bet nobody will be talking about it. I'll take that bet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 19 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: I'll take that bet. Are we more likely to talk about a reversed VAR decision or Henry's handball goal? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, Mic09 said: Are we more likely to talk about a reversed VAR decision or Henry's handball goal? Depends on the context I’d guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 48 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Give it two seasons and I bet nobody will be talking about it. Except Martin Tyler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 24 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: Depends on the context I’d guess. Maybe, but I'm confident that in a large sample of 1000 close, controversial decisions, VAR is likely to give a correct call in 90/95% of cases. A referee will always be 50/50. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 10, 2019 Author VT Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Mic09 said: Are we more likely to talk about a reversed VAR decision or Henry's handball goal? We might be talking about VAR decisions, but I don't think we'll be talking about the pros and cons of VAR. It'll just be the accepted system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted June 10, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2019 2 hours ago, sne said: Pretty much how I see it in it's current form. https://www.football365.com/news/on-the-scourge-of-var-football-should-be-poetry-not-mathematics so much of this i disagree with. Couple of key ones below: moaning managers with a desire to lay off the blame for defeat on someone other than themselves - well there have been numerous incorrect decisions that have impacted the result of a match. imagine as a player/manager doing everything right, but the result doesn't go your way because a ref has bottled a big decision? it's soul destroying. it's your livelihood. you're judged on results, irrespective of the nature of how the results came about Sport is competition between humans, being officiated in the moment by other humans. - therein lies the problem. these humans, have historically, favoured the big teams. we've first hand experience of that (league cup final). Had that been one of our defenders that day, they'd have been given their marching orders without question. anyone that follows someone other than a big team knows that this is not a myth...it's a fact. I wholly and totally accept that wrong decisions will be occasionally made. It does not bother me at all. It is not a flaw and I don’t want it fixed. - i guess this is where most will disagree. i cannot accept key wrong decisions being made...it bothers the shit out of me. it is a fundamental flaw of the game currently...officiating is getting worse and anyone that doesnt agree has their heads in the sand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 21 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: We might be talking about VAR decisions, but I don't think we'll be talking about the pros and cons of VAR. It'll just be the accepted system. and it’ll be the game of football’s loss. Something it has to put up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 10, 2019 Author VT Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2019 Just now, Genie said: and it’ll be the game of football’s loss. Something it has to put up with. I don't think it will. It will ultimately mean we get more decisions right, which has to be a good thing. Any genuine issues with it currently are teething issues with the implementation. Most issues are kind of made up. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoony Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 The amount that some aspects of VAR piss me off is overwhelmingly countered by the greater amount that decisions again Villa that cost us points piss me off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: I don't think it will. It will ultimately mean we get more decisions right, which has to be a good thing. Any genuine issues with it currently are teething issues with the implementation. Most issues are kind of made up. I think this is the part we’ll never agree on. Ok, we knock out a few bad decisions, but for me the cost of that is too high. It’s too intrusive, it’s too slow, it ruins the flow and having these big goals being pulled back breaks my heart. I’d rather have football at full tilt, full emotion, full excitement, full talking points, knowing that apart from a quick glance to see if the linesman flag is down the goal is good than knowing it’s always right (which is still sometimes isn’t). Mr Noel Gallagher was right, “true perfection has to be imperfect. I know that that sounds foolish but it’s true”. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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