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So what would you do?


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Sack Bruce, get Smith in with a remit to use jan window and summer to get a decent footballing side together to get autpmatically promoted next season. Get him to appoint his own coaches from first team to youth team and lay down a style of play to be followed at all levels so when promoting players up through the levels they already know their role back to front.

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I don't think physically too much needs changing because the players have the ability but mentally there is a massive problem with fighting for the 3 points or if we are a goal or 2 down fighting to rescue a point. When we are behind they should be throwing the kitchen sink and  everything at the opposition. For a long time now I just haven't seen enough of that. If we seriously hope of promotion this season that needs to change now. 

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I'm really not sure what we should do at this point, but I feel like things are likely to get worse before they get better. Bruce can't get the best out of the team, and it's going to take a lot of coaching for anyone to get us performing in a coherent and consistent fashion.

My gut feeling has always been that the "promotion at all costs" approach could end up hurting us and was the wrong way to go about things given the utterly shambolic state the club was in when we went down.

Instead of accepting that it might take 2 or 3 years to come back up, and building a vibrant team with a clear identity and ethos, we've continued to focus on the short-term, which is largely what got us into this mess in the first place. In this sense, Bruce and our current troubles are merely a symptom and not the root cause.

We have a top heavy team, many of whom would need replacing even if we do go up. Next year the parachute payments dry up, and then what? We have a large wage bill, with much of the squad nowhere near justifying the money they are on.

Ironically, the focus on promotion in as little time as possible could now lead to us spending many more years in the wilderness. I can't help but feel the club has missed an opportunity to finally become a well run unit with an actual plan. Now, if we don't go up next year we could be in real trouble. Something needs to change pretty quickly, but I'm damned if I know where we should even start

Edited by icouldtelltheworld
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This season isn’t over yet. Sack Bruce then appoint a manager that plays the style we want as a club so even if we fail this year we can build on the next 4 months. Dean Smith is this type but there is others. Sign a. CM that makes us play at a tempo and all of a sudden we will look loads better. Instill in to this group the style we want and if it doesn’t suit then get rid. Use our youth players. I still think we’ll get into the playoffs even if Bruce stays but can’t see us going up through them. 

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On 24/12/2017 at 19:22, LakotaDakota said:

nobody seemed bothered about derby last month when they managed a mighty 4 points from 5 games compared to our 12 points in the same games

Actually they got 7 from 5 games, which is slightly more than twice as good as our 3 from 5 in December.

Taking November and December together, they got 20 from 10 games (the 2ppg target previously mentioned), and we got 15 from 10 games.

So taking the recent good month/bad month together for both clubs, one is possibly promotion form, and one isn't.

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On 12/27/2017 at 11:52, Nigel said:

It's all well and good talking about these great latin/foreign coach's but they are just that.. ...coaches. 

Unfortunately we lack the club foundations for these to work currently. Our manager needs to do far more than simply get the team playing right.

Untill we sort out the mess at the top we need to have a more 'rounded ' manager in place else the job will be impossible. 

Yeah, i get that

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16 hours ago, Eastie said:

If Bruce goes I doubt they have the foresight to line up a new manager and would probably go for terry /calderwood/Agnew as caretaker 

A caretaker would be acceptable if we spent a few weeks making the right choice and getting the right contract.  

FWIW - if we have not already been having these discussions (Round, Wyness, and others) Wyness should be let go, immediately.   Those discussions should have two lists.   One of our ideal dreams regardless of availability, and the other list of currently unemployed in rank of our preference.   There should already be feelers out making contacts with the top choice on each list.   In reality both lists should exist at all times.  Managers have heart attacks and strokes.  

I would love to get a peek at those lists.   

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On 28/12/2017 at 13:19, icouldtelltheworld said:

I'm really not sure what we should do at this point, but I feel like things are likely to get worse before they get better. Bruce can't get the best out of the team, and it's going to take a lot of coaching for anyone to get us performing in a coherent and consistent fashion.

My gut feeling has always been that the "promotion at all costs" approach could end up hurting us and was the wrong way to go about things given the utterly shambolic state the club was in when we went down.

Instead of accepting that it might take 2 or 3 years to come back up, and building a vibrant team with a clear identity and ethos, we've continued to focus on the short-term, which is largely what got us into this mess in the first place. In this sense, Bruce and our current troubles are merely a symptom and not the root cause.

 

Personally I think the opposite got us into this mess. In Sherwood and Garde we were looking for the blueprint of a young manager who would grow with the club - and do all those ehthosy things which I've never quite understood. We even got our recruitment people to spot the best young french talent - maybe some of these weren't quite ready - buy hey think of the potential. Talk of visions, 5 years plans were common place - unfortunately we forgot the here and now and were relegated. 

I don't really care if the team has an identity or an ethos - mainly because I don't know what it is - probably neither did Ron Saunders in 1980/81. Just put a team on the pitch to give us the best chance of promotion next season - when we start talking about ethos thats a problem IMO - not a solution.  You mention we don't have an ethos, identity and have focussed on the short term - yet we look to have the best crop of youth players for a good few years - getting good results too......

 

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15 minutes ago, hippo said:

Personally I think the opposite got us into this mess. In Sherwood and Garde we were looking for the blueprint of a young manager who would grow with the club - and do all those ehthosy things which I've never quite understood. We even got our recruitment people to spot the best young french talent - maybe some of these weren't quite ready - buy hey think of the potential. Talk of visions, 5 years plans were common place - unfortunately we forgot the here and now and were relegated. 

I don't really care if the team has an identity or an ethos - mainly because I don't know what it is - probably neither did Ron Saunders in 1980/81. Just put a team on the pitch to give us the best chance of promotion next season - when we start talking about ethos thats a problem IMO - not a solution.  You mention we don't have an ethos, identity and have focussed on the short term - yet we look to have the best crop of youth players for a good few years - getting good results too......

 

If you watch our youth team play, they look nothing like our first team.  The move, the play with heads up, they play the ball quickly from one area of possible attack to another.  It is a style and an ethos.  Just not one our current manager can embrace.  

One other quick disagreement   We gave a quick nod to the build a team and a style when we hired Garde.   But we pulled the rug from under him in less than three months   Hardly a great commitment to the “slow-re-build-into-a-better-style,”  plan.

 

 

 

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Quote

I don't really care if the team has an identity or an ethos - mainly because I don't know what it is - probably neither did Ron Saunders in 1980/81. Just put a team on the pitch to give us the best chance of promotion next season - when we start talking about ethos thats a problem IMO - not a solution.  You mention we don't have an ethos, identity and have focussed on the short term - yet we look to have the best crop of youth players for a good few years - getting good results too......

 

I went to nearly every home game and a number of away games that season.

Ron used 14 players that season, the first 11 plus Spinks Darcy & Geddis (iirc)

It was 100% clear who could do what and we didnt have a single weakness.

EVERY successful team has had some sort of Plan A & B. I can only suspect that if someone doesnt know what an ethos is in a team game, its because he either hasnt seen one or has forgotten as it‘s been so long.

I can tell you for sure that Ron Saunders, GT (mk1), Atkinson, Little, Gregory & MoN had one

RS won us the league, GT promotion & 2nd, RA 2nd & LC, BL LC, Gregory & MoN had us playing in Europe and challenging the top 6 of PL

We NEED someone with a clear ethos, not only a playing one but an ethos of who we buy and how we tweak & adapt to every challenge that awaits us. It‘s the only way now that we cant checkbook our way out of this league

Edited by Grasshopper
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FWIW.  I don’t think a rebuild with a style MUST take years.  It takes a leader with a plan and the ability to communicate that plan to the players and the courage to bench and sell any one that cannot carry out his role.  

You can even do it incrementally.  In other words carry a few that are genuinely trying, but not perfectly suited to the role until you can move them to another role or another club. 

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3 hours ago, Grasshopper said:

 

I went to nearly every home game and a number of away games that season.

Ron used 14 players that season, the first 11 plus Spinks Darcy & Geddis (iirc)

It was 100% clear who could do what and we didnt have a single weakness.

EVERY successful team has had some sort of Plan A & B. I can only suspect that if someone doesnt know what an ethos is in a team game, its because he either hasnt seen one or has forgotten as it‘s been so long.

I can tell you for sure that Ron Saunders, GT (mk1), Atkinson, Little, Gregory & MoN had one

RS won us the league, GT promotion & 2nd, RA 2nd & LC, BL LC, Gregory & MoN had us playing in Europe and challenging the top 6 of PL

We NEED someone with a clear ethos, not only a playing one but an ethos of who we buy and how we tweak & adapt to every challenge that awaits us. It‘s the only way now that we cant checkbook our way out of this league

So an 'ethos' is a thing that all of our successful managers in the last 30 years have had, but none of our unsuccessful ones? 

Didn't Venglos have an 'ethos'? Or McLeish? Or Garde? 

Can you define what it is, other than 'being successful'?

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17 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

So an 'ethos' is a thing that all of our successful managers in the last 30 years have had, but none of our unsuccessful ones?  

As you choose to missinterpret my point, My Ethos thing was (or it should have been obvious) that with some sort of plan one can have some set parameters in which one works within so that the task at hand can develop into something. How good the „ethos“ is or how one executes it is more than likely the deciding factor.

17 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

Didn't Venglos have an 'ethos'? Or McLeish? Or Garde? 

From what I gathered at the time, Venglos tried to modernize (Europeanize for want of a better word) the training and stuff like diet, lifestyle.....etc for professional atheletes. it didnt work though - neither did Doug selling our best players.

McClose had an ethos - Bore Draw every game for survival - one could argue that he was a success.

As for Garde, no need to comment, the guy was shafted.

17 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

Can you define what it is, other than 'being successful'?

See above

Regarding, Bruce‘s ethos. whatever it is it isnt working and is creating a situation which is only costing us time and money

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22 hours ago, Grasshopper said:

 

I went to nearly every home game and a number of away games that season.

Ron used 14 players that season, the first 11 plus Spinks Darcy & Geddis (iirc)

It was 100% clear who could do what and we didnt have a single weakness.

EVERY successful team has had some sort of Plan A & B. I can only suspect that if someone doesnt know what an ethos is in a team game, its because he either hasnt seen one or has forgotten as it‘s been so long.

I can tell you for sure that Ron Saunders, GT (mk1), Atkinson, Little, Gregory & MoN had one

RS won us the league, GT promotion & 2nd, RA 2nd & LC, BL LC, Gregory & MoN had us playing in Europe and challenging the top 6 of PL

We NEED someone with a clear ethos, not only a playing one but an ethos of who we buy and how we tweak & adapt to every challenge that awaits us. It‘s the only way now that we cant checkbook our way out of this league

Close.

Spink wasn't involved. Deacy & Geddis played 9 games, and Williams/Gibson shared left back duties.

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