The AVFC FFP thread

[TRO]

57 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

After what happened last year I don’t trust any owners or CEO. We can see the accounts and they are clearly breaching FFP rules. So surely it’s only a matter of time before we are next to be punished.  I don’t care how rich and powerful our owners are or how in the know Purslow is. It won’t make a difference.

If we don’t get promoted I guess we can sell assets such as Grealish to balance the books.

It may well be that FFP is actually protecting us from ourselves....as much as it appears to be an irritant.

If our owners were allowed to spend huge amounts of money on players....the first thing that happens, it puts huge pressure on everyone attached to the club, including the fans, whose expectations go in to orbit....that pressure is contagious and spreads to every corner of the club...if the expected results do not manifest themselves the pressure rises like a volcano.....Those pressures can distort good decision making.....and the downward spiral begins.

The way forward is a good manager and coaching staff and a sound academy and recruitment team.....building that way inhibits the potential of out of control pressure on the club....and it's great to see players develop.

The players we need are out there.....It's a question of good net working and judgement, to pull it all together.

Wolves , Man City and Chelsea were fortunate.....it could so easily have back fired, like some clubs can testify.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, danceoftheshamen said:

The big issue I have with all this ffp nonsense is that there are some glaring issues which are being totally ignored. 

It’s all well and good saying Burton and small teams like that don’t think it’s fair that bigger clubs can invest more etc but what about the overall good of the game in all this? 

The history of Avfc and global fan base does mean Villa is a huge club and one of the founding pillars of World football and it has taken over a century to build. Surely to goodness it’s only normal that a club with so many people supporting it and such a prestigious history should be able to invest more than a team like Burton! They earned the right over 150 years for goodness sake! 

It is important for the good of the game that the famous clubs “provided its sustainable and done in a way so as not to threaten its existence” are leading the game, otherwise you risk destroying the game in my opinion. 

So it’s only flipping right that AVFC, who attracted Billionaire owners because of these very reasons... the huge fan base, the history, the stadium etc etc should be allowed to spend more than say Burton Albion ( no offence to Burton) who struggle to fill a 6k stadium and have never won anything!! 

Surely to goodness anyone can see that? 

Same for Leeds, Forest etc they absolutely should be able to spend more than Smaller clubs... it’s the law of the jungle

this is how it is in the Premier League too

clubs like Man City, united, Liverpool, Chelsea etc will spend more than Watford, Bournemouth, Palace etc because they can. 

If you have a rule for one division it surely has to be the same all through, put in safety measures of course but there has to be a better way than the farce that is FFP 

I think you make a very good point....but I still say, spending huge sums brings with it pressure that can distort things, if those funds don't bring the success expected from them.

it's a gamble, maybe a calculated one, depending on the ability to spend it wisely.

Edited March 23, 2019 by TRO

[sne]

13 minutes ago, TRO said:

It may well be that FFP is actually protecting us from ourselves....as much as it appears to be an irritant.

If our owners were allowed to spend huge amounts of money on players....the first thing that happens, it puts huge pressure on everyone attached to the club, including the fans, whose expectations go in to orbit....that pressure is contagious and spreads to every corner of the club...if the expected results do not manifest themselves the pressure rises like a volcano.....Those pressures can distort good decision making.....and the downward spiral begins.

The way forward is a good manager and coaching staff and a sound academy and recruitment team.....building that way inhibits the potential of out of control pressure on the club....and it's great to see players develop.

The players we need are out there.....It's a question of good net working and judgement, to pull it all together.

Wolves , Man City and Chelsea were fortunate.....it could so easily have back fired, like some clubs can testify.

As much as that would be nice I don't think it's a realistic way of doing things anymore.

You also need heaps of money to even stand still. 

At Villa there will always be a huge pressure on managers and players, and while we are down here we will be seen as a stepping stone (still better than a retirement home I guess).

The player turnover will continue to be huge and we can't expect others to have the same love for the club that Grealish has shown.

It will be rebuild, after rebuild, after rebuild. Each time with a little less funds.

We might get lucky and everything might click for a season, but you pretty much have to cheat to succeed.

[villan-scott]

Interesting reading. According to this respected chap, we may well pass FFP by the skin of our teeth. Maybe Purslow does know what he’s doing!

[terrytini]

6 hours ago, Pelle said:

So if mr. Purslow gives me a simple job and simply say "Do this job and I'll pay you £40001000 if you then go in and buy a shirt signed by Grealish for £40m." that would be fine? And that's of course included that he can actually trust me. Genuine question, no matter how stupid it might seem.

Indeed. You exaggerate the point but there’s certainly a question there.

[terrytini]

10 hours ago, Shropshire Lad said:

I think if blues can point to Redknapp and Zola and say “well it was them too”, then should we find ourselves in the same predicament we’ll be able to say “Yeah, but Dr T & Keith...”. That presumably would hold up more to scrutiny than blaming the previous  managers*.

*I was going to say “it would carry more weight” but I couldn’t face the inevitable deluge of Wyness weight related gags.

To be fair if you give someone  the words “ Redknapp” and “ financial catastrophe”, then ask them to add a couple to make a sentence, most people wouldn’t choose to add “ cleverly averted a”....or “has never caused a”..............

[terrytini]

12 hours ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/appendix-5---financial-fair-play-regulations/

To answer the post above regarding gifts. Putting it simply special rules apply to the owners, their associates and other companies connected to them.  If the EFL feels something is an abuse they can assign it a realistic market value. But if someone not connected to the club decided to pay £1000 for a simple shirt - that's fine. If a director paid £1000 it could be adjusted to £60. Get every player to sign it and it might be £1000.

Paying for 10 seasons in advance would not help.  It might be accounted over the 10 years period. Or its accounted in one year and then we lose the benefit for the next 9. 

It’s that Appendix F (2) I lack the expertise to understand. It kind of reads like an unconditional gift might be ok ?

[ciggiesnbeer]

Its still very annoying the EFL doesnt even bother with trying to increase revenues to clubs.

 

Like having an on demand pay per view service available anywhere in the world plus full replays.

 

Go direct, it worked for HBO. Heck if they cant manage their own service that just sell the games through youtube.

[blandy]

17 hours ago, terrytini said:

It’s that Appendix F (2) I lack the expertise to understand. It kind of reads like an unconditional gift might be ok ?

from the link

Quote

Donations from independently run lotteries, PFA contributions for Private Medical Insurance, small gifts from benefactors, donations towards Player salary costs, payment for taxation losses etc. are allowable.

 

[sne]

So a few £100m or so every other seasons from a couple of billionaires surely must be considered as "small gifts"?

I mean it's nothing to them really  

[DCJonah]

17 hours ago, ciggiesnbeer said:

Its still very annoying the EFL doesnt even bother with trying to increase revenues to clubs.

 

Like having an on demand pay per view service available anywhere in the world plus full replays.

 

Go direct, it worked for HBO. Heck if they cant manage their own service that just sell the games through youtube.

Blows my mind that this doesn't happen. 

The NFL and NBA league passes are brilliant. The technology is clearly there to provide a quality service. 

[Mark Albrighton]

It does as well.

 

[terrytini]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

from the link

 

Please be patient does that mean they can, or they can’t ? 

[TRO]

55 minutes ago, sne said:

So a few £100m or so every other seasons from a couple of billionaires surely must be considered as "small gifts"?

I mean it's nothing to them really  

The owners may be personally wealthy, but they don't want be running an unsuccessful club, where their own fortune is keeping it running.

They lose interest in that.

The interest for every rich man, is their asset being successful, however that is measured....and their wits, need to be rewarded, that their ego and excitement.

They won't be happy if it is clear that only them alone are making that happen....They will for a period of time until we get going, but they won't do it forever.

Edited March 24, 2019 by TRO

[sne]

10 minutes ago, TRO said:

The owners may be personally wealthy, but they don't want be running an unsuccessful club, where their own fortune is keeping it running.

They lose interest in that.

The interest for every rich man, is their asset being successful, however that is measured....and their wits, need to be rewarded, that their ego and excitement.

They won't be happy if it is clear that only them alone are making that happen....They will for a period of time until we get going, but they won't do it forever.

Well my post was obviously a joke, but they will equally not be happy if they are despite their wealth unable to put money into the club due to FFP rules I'd imagine.

[Vive_La_Villa]

1 hour ago, Shropshire Lad said:

It does as well.

 

I love it!! 

[blandy]

1 hour ago, terrytini said:

Please be patient does that mean they can, or they can’t ? 

Read the last 2 words of the quote, Terry

[terrytini]

29 minutes ago, blandy said:

Read the last 2 words of the quote, Terry

Hmm I’m not sure if that was all that patient or not lol.

I should’ve made clear, having read the entire quote, can they or can’t they ?

What exactly is a small gift ? I mean, to me, a small gift is a few thousand pounds, but to a multi billionaire ?

Is the crucial bit that the6 don’t want it back ?

And how many friends, family, and relations of the Owners can make them ?

Not really expecting definite answers, but I think it’s at least a grey area - certainly in my brain it is !

Anyway, we will see in time I’m sure.

Edited March 24, 2019 by terrytini

[blandy]

On 23/03/2019 at 02:56, terrytini said:

I still don’t understand how it all relates to gifts.

If I gave a pound towards Villas debts would it breach FFP ? If not,how about a tenner ? How about £100, or £100,000 ? Or what if my wealthy Uncle wants to give them £50,000,000 ? What if he is Edens ?

Or/and...

If I offered to pay for my next 20 years season tickets in advance ? That’d be £10,000.

And if I pay for my Programs, and food, in advance ? And if I’m happy pay £1000 for a shirt ? I know things like sponsorship deals have to be justifiable but if they put a collection bucket outside the gates and it empties out at £40,000,000 surely that’s ok ?

So, if anyone knows ( knows, rather than ‘reckons’) how Clubs stand as regards people giving them ‘no strings’ gifts, and/or upfront payments, I’d be interested.

Alright then, in a bit more detail. You asked

Quote

If I gave a pound towards Villas debts would it breach FFP ? If not,how about a tenner ? How about £100, or £100,000 ? Or what if my wealthy Uncle wants to give them £50,000,000 ? What if he is Edens ?

A pounds is fine. as is a tenner or £100. When it gets to £100K, I suspect that's very much borderline. They'd maybe look at the overall state of the FFP submission - so if a club was under the limit by say a very small margin, and that was down to a claim by that club that a "small gift" of £100K had kept them just inside (they'd be maybe 90K over the limit if it weren't for the gift, then maybe they'd fudge it and let the club off the hook, for want of avoiding legal action. But realistically people don't give 100K to football clubs. Now Edens is not an unrelated party - he's an owner, so he is not allowed, in the FFP calls to "gift" money to the club - he can do it, but it isn't counted in the sums.

If they want it back, it's not a gift, it's a loan, and therefore wouldn't be permitted for FFP calls.

Friends family & relations are likely to be looked at as to whether they are "related parties" -  "person or entity (or any Associate of that person or entity) that is Interested in the Championship Club (or any member of the Group that is included within the Accounts lodged in accordance with these Rules)."

So a spouse, for example would likely be counted as a related party and thus any "gift" wouldn't count for FFP purposes. Friends...it would need to be established that there was no underhand "ills catch your back..." type of deal going on. Hard to prove, but likely to come under suspicion. You'd surely start from the perspective that people don't give large sums of money to businesses without wanting anything back and where they have no financial reason for doing so "an interest".

If a friend or relative is considered to be a related party, then (from the link above)

Quote

 

Examples of Related Party Transactions that must always be excluded from income are:

4.2.1       monies received by a Championship Club from a Related Party as a donation; and

4.2.2       settlement of liabilities on behalf of the Championship Club by a Related Party.

4.3          In effect, contributions from / savings in relation to a Related Party will be treated as Contributions from Equity Participants / Related Party(ies) ...

 

 

[Vive_La_Villa]

When I read about how much we spent the last 2 seasons and in particular on wages last season. It’s a complete joke that Bruce had the nerve to keep saying he had to beg, steal and borrow!