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The Great Tower Block Fire Tragedy of London


TrentVilla

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1 hour ago, MakemineVanilla said:

But it seems likely that when the whole thing is unravelled it will turn out to be a convoluted bureaucratic chain of oversights converging on a series of chance events.

There is certainly a complicated chain of contractors and sub-contractors, who will all be pointing the finger at each other.  There are still decision points that can be identified, for example when someone decided to buy panels which were not fire resistant instead of the slightly dearer ones which were.  Things like that will be explored in some detail by investigators.

There is also a backdrop of lax regulation and underfunding (a similar tale can be told about food safety and the inspection regime there), and we need to insist that the people responsible are held to account for that as well.

So I don't think I would use the term "oversights".  It's more a retreat from accountability, starting with the decision to pass off management of the housing to an arms-length body, and failure to ensure a sound regulatory framework and funding to enforce it, combined with a series of operational decisions aimed at saving money rather than having the interests of the tenants in mind.  The accounts we are getting of the contractors trying to fit boilers in the hallways so that the front doors wouldn't open fully, suggest what kind of attitude they approached the job with.  Did that approach also show itself in regard to safety issues?  We shall see.

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2 hours ago, Xela said:

Absolute clown shoes. 

Some people thrive on division and conflict, she is clearly one of them. She needs to shut her deluded mouth. 

So, there is no way that given the past 16 years of us bombing muslim nations **and** the recent terrorist attacks **and** the hatred spewed daily from a couple of prominent newspapers **and** the large number of muslims in this particular building that these same people might be feeling under attack in some sense right now. Pretending that there is no problem is not how this should be dealt with. Some of these real issues need to be spoken about openly.

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56 minutes ago, blandy said:

He could have gone down a line of appealing to people with empty property / rooms in the area to help out, to show altruism and generosity to the people, while mentioning that the law currently prevents forced requisitioning and that he thinks that needs to change.

My Sister and BIL live very close to the Tower, they had debris falling in their garden and getting into their house. They offered their spare room for housing as soon they could, havnt heard anything back. I would suggest alot of spare rooms would have been offered maybe even more than needed if the other types of help and support is anything to go by.... I know families need houses etc but that's difficult

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1 hour ago, MakemineVanilla said:

The BBC seemed to be struggling to find enough angry people to give them what they want, this lunchtime. They could only find the grief-stricken.

It sounds like angry people are not that hard to find, here.

Quote

Emotions are running high at the protest at Kensington and Chelsea town hall. They were demanding that the chief executive or council leader come out to address them but instead were given a written response by the council’s head of communications.

There were many chants of “Not 17”, a reference to the fact that they believe many more than 17 perished.

 

Some video in that piece as well.

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The real problem right now is that this issue is turning into a political gains match rather than a debate on how things have gone wrong. I'm sure these materials have been used in both labour and tory council areas yet both parties are pointing fingers. Corbyn has used it to score political brownie points by poking at the rich, while Theresa couldn't get positive PR even if it hit her in the face. According to close friends in Kensington more than 1000 households have offered up rooms and beds, yet all we're hearing is how the rich and foreigners have bought up the area and left it empty. For a party the claims to be inclusive Labour sure are harping on about foreigners a lot right now.

Yes, some flats and higher end housing is bought up by foreign investors in Kensington. A vast majority of these flats and houses are rented out already, of which many have offered out free rooms and beds to the victims. Let's not turn this into a class war when it's about horrible slips in construction ethics.

You don't hear the major of Barcelona complaining that the tens of thousands of flats that are owned by foreigners in his city that stand vacant most of the year need to be "reclaimed for the homeless and poor". 

Edited by magnkarl
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43 minutes ago, peterms said:

as a simple proposition that the property rights of absentee owners come a long way behind the immediate needs of the victims of this tragedy, I can't fault it.  In terms of putting it into practice, if there is the political will, then a way will be found.

That's the problem - "the property rights of absentee owners DON'T come a long way behind the immediate needs of the victims of this tragedy". That's what politicians are there to sort out. That's what we'd (or at least I'd ) hope the MPs sort out - In the short term, given the current law, I'd hope that as I said above, people with empty rooms/houses would offer to help, and be encouraged to offer help where help is needed.

It is not currently possible for the authorities to requisition houses immediately. So raising it as an option, as Corbyn did, is disingenuous, in my view. I'd want any politician to say that the sudden, urgent need for temporary short to medium term homes for people in that part of London has exposed flaws in the law as it stands.

Rushing to requisition homes illegally just would open up all kinds of negative consequences, which would ultimately end up hurting people - the council being sued for damages, meaning costs they can't afford and the council tax payers can't afford (though perhaps some in Kensington could).

There's lots of System and equality problems been exposed by this horrible fire, as well as all the safety stuff - and I'd want politicians to act calmly and quickly to start sorting them out, rather than talking about requisitioning houses which is basically not practicably possible.

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9 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

For a party the claims to be inclusive Labour sure are harping on about foreigners a lot right now.

Interesting. Got a link?

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2 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

I can just imagine some people offering rooms, until they realise the occupants might be brown people. 

You mean the 55% of the population that are already "brown" as you put it? I think a hell of a lot of people on here think that Chelsea and Kensington is some posh British neighbourhood when in fact it is a really multicultural place. Just because it has rich people living there doesn't mean that it's predominantly rich. Let's not turn this debate into a racial one either.

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5 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

You mean the 55% of the population that are already "brown" as you put it? I think a hell of a lot of people on here think that Chelsea and Kensington is some posh British neighbourhood when in fact it is a really multicultural place. Just because it has rich people living there doesn't mean that it's predominantly rich. Let's not turn this debate into a racial one either.

That's why I said 'some'. 

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Just now, mjmooney said:

That's why I said 'some'. 

So even if you take out the 45% British households in Kensington & Chelsea (16,389), there would still be over 8000 houses offering up a place. Let's not draw wide lines like you are suggesting. The people who are offering up a room aren't going to not offer it to people because they are "brown". 

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6 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

As I predicted, the anger is building.

I can see it getting ugly tonight.

Agreed, this is when all the loonies that live for protesting will join the peaceful people that were there and it'll turn into a black lives matter kind of thing where looting/rioting etc will ensue. This is a shame for the case as people will focus on the rioting instead of the actual problems here.

Blocking clerical staff at the council building from getting out is stupid. They had no decision in the cladding on this building. The head of the local fire service sits at the council building and he's now trapped inside after 2 days of hell. Is that okay? Eegits.

Edited by magnkarl
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The ground floor in Kensington Town Hall is gonna look like a bomb went off in there come tomorrow morning. Though I feel that London itself will be lucky if they stay put in there as protests, riots and excuses to loot never do. I understand that the victims and the families of the victims want answers, but I truly believe that most of the people protesting right now have no connection to anything that happened a few nights ago. Some people prey on shit like this as they love any chance to protest, to riot and to cause upheaval.. I truly feel sorry for those who lost people in this incident as I feel their moment is about to get hijacked.

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Look at the previous unrest that were caused by the death of 1 guy.we could be looking at 70+ people here that have lost their lives.

There is no problem with protesting peacefully, but seeing the civil unrest boiling this afternoon it wouldn't surprise me if it kicked off again big time into a full blown riot. The government really have handled the whole situation poorly,  you would think they have learnt from previous events?

Why can't May just show her face and meet the victims i don't understand, she doesn't do debates and sends a crony instead and she's done the same today with Leadsom.

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Been watching the protests, and agree there's a massive chance of trouble this evening. Raw emotion and anger, and a community on the edge. Lot of deep seeded, tension, and an underlining feeling of oppression, and injustice. There needs to be an independent inquest into this, and anyone involves, regardless of position of power needs to be held accountable. This needs sorting quickly, and people need answers and justice.

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Just now, dAVe80 said:

Been watching the protests, and agree there's a massive chance of trouble this evening. Raw emotion and anger, and a community on the edge. Lot of deep seeded, tension, and an underlining feeling of oppression, and injustice. There needs to be an independent inquest into this, and anyone involves, regardless of position of power needs to be held accountable. This needs sorting quickly, and people need answers and justice.

Agreed, but then again the elements of society that will do tonights rioting will most likely have NO connection whatsoever with Grenfell. It'll be the anarchists and the usual lot out to "have some fun" off a horrible situation. It'll subtract from the actual problem.

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