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The Great Tower Block Fire Tragedy of London


TrentVilla

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To be fair, a group of people in a flat moaning about the management doesn't really scream 'big headline'. In retrospect, and all that...

Still, it's not the media's job to protect tenants, to say Channel 4 are complicit in the deaths of people in this fire is absolutely absurd.

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2 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

To be fair, a group of people in a flat moaning about the management doesn't really scream 'big headline'. In retrospect, and all that...

Still, it's not the media's job to protect tenants, to say Channel 4 are complicit in the deaths of people in this fire is absolutely absurd.

And Bruce Jenner turning himself into Mrs doubtfire, Cheryl Coles offspring or Katy Perry cutting her hair are pressing issues we simply had to know about?

Not a dig at you btw but at mainstream news outlets.

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21 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

To be fair, a group of people in a flat moaning about the management doesn't really scream 'big headline'. In retrospect, and all that...

I think that's wrong. It may not be an easy 'big headline' but shouldn't journalists be trying to search out stories?

People complaining after purchasing their leasehold homes and the freehold being sold on to other parties (and it costing more and them not understanding leases) made quite a big headline a few weeks ago.

Edit: It was described as a 'disgrace' and a 'scandal'.

Edited by snowychap
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3 hours ago, TrentVilla said:

I honestly think the death toll is being down played to stop riots.

I think it's being down played because in this scenario they honestly don't know 

I doubt very much they know the number of residents to start with, then how many are undeclared, how many are visitors, the. Start deducting people who work nights, people ho were out on the piss, people who escaped etc

its really not an easy number to work out, the reality is a fair few of the videos showing a towering inferno are 3/4 hours in to the blaze

That said im not actually sure there is a number that would shock me, more likely to be going south rather than north

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Experts warned government against cladding material used on Grenfell

Quote

The government’s building safety experts warned last year that the drive for greater energy efficiency meant more and more buildings are being wrapped in materials that could go up in flames.

In a report compiled before the Grenfell Tower disaster on Wednesday, the Building Research Establishment, which works for the Department of Communities and Local Government on fire investigations, said attempts to innovate with insulation were leading to an “increase in the volume of potentially combustible materials being applied” to buildings.

Construction and fire experts increasingly fear that the cladding system applied to Grenfell Tower may have been instrumental in spreading the fire. The system was installed to improve the thermal efficiency of the building and improve its appearance.

Investigations are also focused on gas pipes in the stairways and lobbies recently installed by National Grid, which residents had complained had not been boxed in with fire retardant material despite assurances they would be.

London fire brigade said on Thursday a gas main inside the block had ruptured, causing firefighters to work through Wednesday night to isolate it.

There is also uncertainty over how the project’s adherence with building regulations was scrutinised. The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, where Grenfell Tower is situated, said a “full plans decision notice was not required in this case” and that “a completion certificate was issued” instead.

According to the government’s website, a full plans decision notice is “the most thorough option”, but this was not taken. Neither the borough nor the cladding contractor, Harley, responded when asked to comment on why this route was not taken.

The Reynobond cladding applied to the Grenfell tower last year as part of a £10m refurbishment is made from powder-coated aluminium panels that are usually filled with plastic insulation, which is flammable.

As detailed on the planning application, fire barriers were due to be inserted between the cladding on each floor to limit the spread to small melt out areas. But Dr Jim Glocking, technical director at the Fire Protection Association, said its own tests on external thermal insulation cladding systems showed that if these barriers are breached by a vent or a pipe, “a chimney effect may quickly develop that will cause the very rapid consumption of the insulation and expansion of the damage area”.

Geoff Wilkinson, managing director of Wilkinson Construction Consultants, said the hole could be relatively modest in size, adding: “Even a drill hole of four inches in diameter can be enough.”

During planning in 2012, the building service engineering company Max Fordham advised that one option in the refurbishment was to remove “fire stopping” systems temporarily in order to install new heating pipes. It is unclear if that approach was taken and Max Fordham did not return request for comment.

The cladding contractor, Harley, declined to comment on how the system was built out – citing the forthcoming investigation and public inquiry. But it is understood the design differed to that which was detailed in planning documents. Investigators are likely to want to quickly establish whether details such as cavity fire barriers, which appeared in planning drawings, were included.

Rydon, the main contractor, said in statement the project “met all required building regulations – as well as fire regulation and health and safety standards – and handover took place when the completion notice was issued by Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea building control”.

Rydon chief executive Robert Bond said: “I will do all I can to assist in this investigation in order to establish what caused this tragedy. In light of the public inquiry, we cannot make any further comment at this time.”

Ipswich firm Celotex confirmed it provided insulation materials for the refurbishment. The material has the most stringent “class 0” fire rating in building standards regulations but independent tests on the material used to make it, polyisocyanurate, show that in intense fires it can release lethal hydrogen cyanide fumes and can be rapidly fatal.

Public Health England moved to dampen fears about ongoing poisons in the air and a spokeswoman said there was “minimal wider risk to public health as a result of the smoke plume”. She said all smoke is toxic and could have affected those close to the scene but that no additional or unusual chemical fumes had been detected.

At least one other London tower block has been refurbished using the same Reynobond aluminium cladding system used on Grenfell Tower. A planning application to renovate Clements Court in Hounslow, which has 13 storeys, was made in 2008. Planning application documents filed with the council detail plans to provide the building with a rainproof cladding, using the Reynobond brand of panels.

One architect, who has used similar systems, said cladding panels are also available with mineral wool insulation, which are less flammable but more expensive.

“I only use the mineral wool ones because your gut tells you it is not right to wrap a building in plastic,” he told the Guardian.

As far back as 2000, Gordon Cooke – a leading fire safety consultant – warned in a report commissioned by the mineral wool industry “the use of plastic foam cored sandwich panels ... is difficult to justify when considering life safety”.

He said the panels “can contribute to the severity and speed of fire development” and said this has led to “massive fire loses” in the past.

 

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the thing with all of this is time

the gas pipes being boxed in, 100% should be, you use fire liner board, the pink stuff, it'll give you an hour

front doors as I've said will give you 30 minutes, 60 minutes on the stairs

the cladding, flammable in the centre but it's got through 6mm of aluminium before it's got there, you'll get an hour on that 

buildings are not designed to be fire proof, they're designed to give you enough time to get out, after 3/4 hours the buildings going, the only thing that doesn't burn is the concrete, if it had been a steel frame building there's every danger that would have gone too

the fundamental flaw with this building is you cannot get that many people out that quickly, and that's before you throw in the number of disabled and elderly

Edited by villa4europe
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5 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Isn't the observation that it didn't take anything near that long?

To my knowledge nothing we install on site is certified over one hour

intumescent paint, which is the fire resistant paint that you put on steels to stop it melting is one hour

 

 

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1 minute ago, villa4europe said:

To my knowledge nothing we install on site is certified over one hour

intumescent paint, which is the fire resistant paint that you put on steels to stop it melting is one hour

But again, I thought the observation was that the fire flew up the building in a much shorter period of time than that.

I may be wrong. Apologies if I am.

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1 hour ago, omariqy said:

Honestly this is so tragic. Been hearing about some of the stories from the families. It shouldn't take this for us to realise how bad things are in this country and what inequality does to the normal man. I am angry at myself and all of us for allowing this to carry on. **** trickle down economics, **** austerity, **** MPs voting for their own self interests and enough of us wasting our days with meaningless crap and giving in to hate and division. We have become such a fragmented nation and it takes something horrific as this for us to realise actually we have a lot more in common than we think. I'm guilty of thinking about myself, being comfortable and not thinking too much of what it is actually like in this country for many people. I came from council housing, I can remember how hard it was for my mum and dad. Yet it was so easy for me and obviously many others just to think about myself 99.9% of the time. It took this election for me to realise what is actually going on across the country. We've become such a me, me, me nation.  It sickens me that Theresa May can just turn around and say austerity is over, just like that. What you and other MPs decide impacts peoples lives. Its not just soundbites to help you gain applause on question time or gain more power. Sorry I am rambling.

Modern society and the neo-liberal paradigm trains us to spend our time looking up. Never down. None of this aspect of social engineering is accidental.

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3 hours ago, Awol said:

I was in London the night the police ran away, what I saw wasn't protests for social justice ('cos a drug dealer got shot), it was a bunch of low life scumbags looting the businesses of decent people.   Protests good, protests as cover for a crime spree not good. 

If they ever pull that crap again I hope the rubber bullets come out, that'll learn 'em.

Think about this a little Awol.

Living here at the time, I was simply amazed at the restraint of the police, sitting back and filming and then slowly and deliberately shutting the riot down. Stuff got damaged, our super precious stuff. In the months that followed prosecutions occurred, sure not everyone but think of the alternative. If that happened over here, lives would have been lost. They quite likely would have deployed the military with shoot-second rules of engagement. These scumbags we look down on (sometimes rightly) are typically drawn from the lowest strata of society.

The British response should be a textbook example of how such events are dealt with in the modern age. Afterall, what the hell do we pay all these expensive insurance premiums to those wonderful conglomerates for?

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6 hours ago, villa4europe said:

I think it's being down played because in this scenario they honestly don't know 

I doubt very much they know the number of residents to start with, then how many are undeclared, how many are visitors, the. Start deducting people who work nights, people ho were out on the piss, people who escaped etc

its really not an easy number to work out, the reality is a fair few of the videos showing a towering inferno are 3/4 hours in to the blaze

That said im not actually sure there is a number that would shock me, more likely to be going south rather than north

Yes I get they don't know but since when has that stopped the press speculating? 

On your last line, I don't really understand what you mean.

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7 hours ago, omariqy said:

Honestly this is so tragic. Been hearing about some of the stories from the families. It shouldn't take this for us to realise how bad things are in this country and what inequality does to the normal man. I am angry at myself and all of us for allowing this to carry on. **** trickle down economics, **** austerity, **** MPs voting for their own self interests and enough of us wasting our days with meaningless crap and giving in to hate and division. We have become such a fragmented nation and it takes something horrific as this for us to realise actually we have a lot more in common than we think. I'm guilty of thinking about myself, being comfortable and not thinking too much of what it is actually like in this country for many people. I came from council housing, I can remember how hard it was for my mum and dad. Yet it was so easy for me and obviously many others just to think about myself 99.9% of the time. It took this election for me to realise what is actually going on across the country. We've become such a me, me, me nation.  It sickens me that Theresa May can just turn around and say austerity is over, just like that. What you and other MPs decide impacts peoples lives. Its not just soundbites to help you gain applause on question time or gain more power. Sorry I am rambling.

Nothing to say sorry about. Sounds like my life story too. Try hard to give something back where I can. Massive shop to foodbank each month, I mentor young people, help local charities... I just realise how lucky I am and I was also brought up in a council house. I'm so lucky to have what I have and want to share it. I'm actually on holiday atm, but have been reading stories about the tower fire. Heartbreaking.

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7 hours ago, coda said:

The Times saying fire-resistant panels £2 per sq mtr more expensive. Less than £5k extra for whole tower.

 

8 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

And this is why safety requires regulation and can't be left to the free market. Clearly the regulations were insufficient in this case, but hey, everyone hates 'red tape'.

 

Even here, with the shock of a less flammable product costing just £2 less, there is still the potential of it not being a straight choice.

I don't know anything about the procurement process for this refurb contract, but if it was a tender run on government rules, there's every chance they might not have had a choice but accept the very cheapest bid.

For the last couple of years there has been a change in the way some government construction contracts are awarded. To be on the tender list you are already 'pre-qualified' as a company the govt can do business with. All the panels on the market will have some form of certification saying they are a legitimate building product. So now, the tender comes down to a straight fight on price with the local authority awarding the contract potentially bound to accept lowest price wins.

Two bidders, one says they'll do the work for a million using the top rated, best, most excellent panels. The other, using the less good but still compliant panel, tenders for £999,999.99

It could be that at home the no brainer decision would be spend the extra penny. Some government tender processes would insist lowest tender wins. So the person that selects the winning contractor with the cheaper panel might have hand their hands tied by the 'red tape' that looks after our money.

I don't know the process here on this project, whether Kensington were bound by such rules. But the distaste over the £5k, even that might not be straightforward greed. It could be, but it isn't automatic.

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7 hours ago, villa4europe said:

the cladding, flammable in the centre but it's got through 6mm of aluminium before it's got there, you'll get an hour on that 

The story in the Times in the tweet below says the cladding used is banned in the US for any high building, and in Germany is rated the same level of fire resistance as unprotected wood less than 12mm thick.  I expect we'll hear a lot more detail about this.

 

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There are comments from the firms involved in the cladding along the lines that it complied with the relevant regulations.

While that may be true, it's not the end of the mattter.

A criminal investigation,  whether by the police or the HSE or both, will no doubt want to explore in depth what was known about the building materials and why it was thought acceptable to fit something known to be flammable.  In response to that question, the answer "Because it was allowed" will not be adequate.

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