The Great Tower Block Fire Tragedy of London

[chrisp65]

Just now, magnkarl said:

So we should control the market to make sure that everyone can buy everything? That isn't social cleansing, it's called market force. Do you have aspirations for buying something? A car, a house, anything? Let's fix the economy to make sure that everyone can live in London - I'll take a big villa in Mayfair thanks.

[markavfc40]

49 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

The fact that London attracts people is one thing, but they have to deal with the ramifications of this housing market being way above all other cities in this country. Do you not think the sale of properties in London generates anything for our economy?

Taxing it isn't going to give these types of homes to homeless and the poorest in our society - that is a pipe-dream. It'll just make them slightly less profitable for investor

Taxing it won't give these types of homes to the homeless/poorest in our society. What it will do though is put a few more coffers in the Governments pockets and maybe they can use that to do what they have failed to do since they came into to power, build enough social housing and make the existing social housing safe for people to live. Maybe then in one of the richest countries in the world we wouldn't have people burning to death in their own homes because the Government turned a blind eyed and failed to act on recommendations they were given off the back of another similar tragedy where the poorest in our society were again the victims. It almost suggests those people don't matter and are expendable doesn't it.

[Nicho]

28 minutes ago, tinker said:

Politics in a thread of this nature is totally wrong, doesn't matter who started, stop ffs.

No leadership on the ground or through the whole system is evident here, still no one has the bollox to stand up and say this is what's going to happen , we have a plan.

The press coverage is also well out of order , no information just videos of people's desperations and the sound sound bites over and over. They even covered other news events with the fuxking flat in the background......riot, I would if it was my family at the top of that structure of doom and failure

 The block should remain to remind us all of what weak management and corner cutting can lead to. 

God rest them all and God help the friends and relatives of those that have perished and those people who knew all along the systems used were dangerous, but chose to ignore it because it was the easy option .

This is a failure of our country.

Disagree with the bold and think that your following statements back it up. 

The block has been through numerous Conservative and Labour Governments and yet was in a position to cause the damage it has so both can be blamed for standards over the long term.

In the short term, a vote to deliver housing that is fit for living in was voted down last year by Tory Mps and Torys MPs only. With funding at the forefront of the national agenda, to use the event as a way to advertise it is wrong but post-mortem cuts to funding and delivery to these kind of areas is completely relevant. Politics has played is part. 

To generalise all Tory Mps as uncaring, cost cutting money hoarding devils is incorrect, Im sure there are some fantastic Tory MPs. However the funding and situation is a microcosm of austerity and Tory policy. The image of that burning tower and the damage it has caused is the police and fire services, NHS, prisons, schools and all other public services in one image. 

The media on the other hand can go **** themselves, parasites.

[Rugeley Villa]

2 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

Taxing it won't give these types of homes to the homeless/poorest in our society. What it will do though is put a few more coffers in the Governments pockets and maybe they can use that to do what they have failed to do since they came into to power, build enough social housing and make the existing social housing safe for people to live. Maybe then in one of the richest countries in the world we wouldn't have people burning to death in their own homes because the Government turned a blind eyed and failed to act on recommendations they were given off the back of another similar tragedy where the poorest in our society were again the victims. It almost suggests those people don't matter and are expendable doesn't it.

Has it not always been like that? Sod the poor and all that. Regardless of how poor someone is they are entitled to safe accommodation and this tower block in question certainly was not safe. They never fitted sprinklers because it was too expensive which is an utter disgrace. 

[mjmooney]

36 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

That's too easy though. Rioting is more fun.

You seem to be far more outraged by people's reactions to the fire than by the tragedy itself. 

[magnkarl]

9 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

You seem to be far more outraged by people's reactions to the fire than by the tragedy itself. 

Nope. I just think that blaming people for not going into a burning building while it's still smoldering to give everyone casualty reports by the second is too much to ask. Our fire crews and emergency services have worked around the clock and blaming the council for not having information when it's not available or already updated by the police is not productive. I have a son in law who is a fireman, I assure you there's nothing these guys wouldn't do to help people get out and to get peace of mind with casualty reports. 

Our society is plagued by a lot of outrage before the fact, I wish people would actually contribute to solutions rather than taking up arms whenever they see something that might be offensive. Sky and BBC letting very angry people vent on public TV is not helping the poor sods who are working 24 hour shifts smoke-diving into a building littered with bodies. A lot of the firemen will have PTSD-like symptoms which will require counselling after this - the reports of protesters hounding the firemen to give them details is absolutely disgraceful.

Edited June 16, 2017 by magnkarl

[Rugeley Villa]

6 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Nope. I just think that blaming people for not going into a burning building while it's still smoldering to give everyone casualty reports by the second is too much to ask. Our fire crews and emergency services have worked around the clock and blaming the council for not having information when it's not available or already updated by the police is not productive. I have a son in law who is a fireman, I assure you there's nothing these guys wouldn't do to help people get out and to get peace of mind with casualty reports. 

Our society is plagued by a lot of outrage before the fact, I wish people would actually contribute to solutions rather than taking up arms whenever they see something that might be offensive. Sky and BBC letting very angry people vent on public TV is not helping the poor sods who are working 24 hour shifts smoke-diving into a building littered with bodies. A lot of the firemen will have PTSD-like symptoms which will require counselling after this - the reports of protesters hounding the firemen to give them details is absolutely disgraceful.

any excuse for a riot for some of them and you will also have some nasty anti establishment types that are behind it even though they live nowhere near the area. There is a time and a place and I don't think this is the right time for rioting at the moment. As has already been pointed out by mike, this weekend is a scorcher which may add fuel to the situation, no pun intended.

[Ingram85]

You are tarnishing people for something that hasn't happened yet.

[blandy]

10 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Nope. I just think that blaming people for not going into a burning building while it's still smoldering to give everyone casualty reports by the second is too much to ask. Our fire crews and emergency services have worked around the clock and blaming the council for not having information when it's not available or already updated by the police is not productive. I have a son in law who is a fireman, I assure you there's nothing these guys wouldn't do to help people get out and to get peace of mind with casualty reports. 

Our society is plagued by a lot of outrage before the fact, I wish people would actually contribute to solutions rather than taking up arms whenever they see something that might be offensive. Sky and BBC letting very angry people vent on public TV is not helping the poor sods who are working 24 hour shifts smoke-diving into a building littered with bodies. A lot of the firemen will have PTSD-like symptoms which will require counselling after this - the reports of protesters hounding the firemen to give them details is absolutely disgraceful.

There's a lot in that I agree with. Yet I can't help feeling that the people venting, understandably to the TV are doing so in part because of the lack of organisation around the tragedy and it's effects, and while it might not be helping the people working away to sort through the debris, it at least gives the poor people affected a voice, a chance to be heard.... It seems like there's lots of help and sympathy from all kinds of normal people, from famous people offering to raise money...and not so much help from "the authorites", and some pretty half arsed official "listening" and informing going on.

And if there were more fireman, rather than the reduced number due to tory cuts, perhaps they'd be able to get some respite. They deserve it. Same with the police and hospital staff.

It looks liek a storm of chickens come home to roost - a storm the residents pretty much predicted in terms of the horrendous fire, and a storm much of the wider public could feel in terms of the general decline and damage to society done by, amongst other thing, tory cuts and the stupid austerity rubbish that Osbourne and May and the rest have pursued so vigourously.

It's just an awful mess, and only the firefighters, public services and local people come out of it with any dignity. The media, politicians and the rest look like shambling, incompetent, clowns.

[Rugeley Villa]

4 minutes ago, Ingram85 said:

You are tarnishing people for something that hasn't happened yet.

Not intended and my bad. I'm speaking like it's already happened. Anyway who cares, people have lost their lives in a tragic fire.

[magnkarl]

10 minutes ago, blandy said:

There's a lot in that I agree with. Yet I can't help feeling that the people venting, understandably to the TV are doing so in part because of the lack of organisation around the tragedy and it's effects, and while it might not be helping the people working away to sort through the debris, it at least gives the poor people affected a voice, a chance to be heard.... It seems like there's lots of help and sympathy from all kinds of normal people, from famous people offering to raise money...and not so much help from "the authorites", and some pretty half arsed official "listening" and informing going on.

And if there were more fireman, rather than the reduced number due to tory cuts, perhaps they'd be able to get some respite. They deserve it. Same with the police and hospital staff.

It looks liek a storm of chickens come home to roost - a storm the residents pretty much predicted in terms of the horrendous fire, and a storm much of the wider public could feel in terms of the general decline and damage to society done by, amongst other thing, tory cuts and the stupid austerity rubbish that Osbourne and May and the rest have pursued so vigourously.

It's just an awful mess, and only the firefighters, public services and local people come out of it with any dignity. The media, politicians and the rest look like shambling, incompetent, clowns.

From speaking to my son in law yesterday he said there's very little they could have done when the temperatures get to that level (around 1000C), even conventional hoses would do very little. The whole thing is a farce and whoever installed the cladding needs to be looked at. When a fire gets that hot it even burns a lot of the equipment that the brave men and women that dive into such an inferno have on them. 

My point still stands though, a demonstration is good, a riot and badgering exhausted firemen for information while sticking a camera in their face is not.

[TrentVilla]

15 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

My point still stands though, a demonstration is good, a riot and badgering exhausted firemen for information while sticking a camera in their face is not.

Has a single person said otherwise?

[bickster]

What riot?

[Dodgyknees]

19 minutes ago, bickster said:

What riot?

I think he is getting outraged over nothing. He will really hate that about society.

[Awol]

Obviously no one who has survived this fire and is now homeless should be left in the street, the local council should already have them sorted in local hotels & central government can pick up the bill if required. 

The wrong answer is arbitrarily seizing private property, whether it's occupied or not - I can't really believe that needs pointing out, but just in case the Human Rights Act says hi. 

There needs to be an investigation / inquest asap and if there is evidence to support charges then those responsible/culpable should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. But they need to do the investigation first and get to the bottom of it before this unseemly rush to politicise the deaths. 

Saw a clip on BBC of people marching on Downing St calling for May to go. Printed and mass produced signs with the same slogan, clearly not the local residents affected. 

Well organised, calling for May to go outside Downing St... call my cynical but it stinks of Momentum or close associates  politicising these deaths for their own political ends. 

 

[colhint]

6 hours ago, peterms said:

No, that's how he might explain it in introducing emergency legislation.  In setting out a clear and simple policy goal for public consumption, it's better to state it simply, as he has done.

As for doing it, we already have empty dwelling management orders.  Perhaps it would be simpler to amend the timescales set out there, than introduce new legislation - I don't know.  That legal framework already includes reasonable exceptions, like not applying to property which is the home of someone admitted to a care home, for example, so might be a good basis to start from.

There are practical problems to do with the government not managing to arrange for parliament to get back to business because they are stitching up a deal with the odious DUP, which introduces some delay.

But as a simple proposition that the property rights of absentee owners come a long way behind the immediate needs of the victims of this tragedy, I can't fault it.  In terms of putting it into practice, if there is the political will, then a way will be found.

but isn't that totally against article 1 of ECHR. Not sure you can do that legally.

[chrisp65]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

Our society is plagued by a lot of outrage before the fact, I wish people would actually contribute to solutions rather than taking up arms whenever they see something that might be offensive. 

yep, they should do this the right way

they should maybe form a residents' committee and go through the correct channels for years, petitioning the landlord to install life saving features 

[magnkarl]

2 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

Taxing it won't give these types of homes to the homeless/poorest in our society. What it will do though is put a few more coffers in the Governments pockets and maybe they can use that to do what they have failed to do since they came into to power, build enough social housing and make the existing social housing safe for people to live. Maybe then in one of the richest countries in the world we wouldn't have people burning to death in their own homes because the Government turned a blind eyed and failed to act on recommendations they were given off the back of another similar tragedy where the poorest in our society were again the victims. It almost suggests those people don't matter and are expendable doesn't it.

A fair enough argument - but we all know that any funds generated would not be wisely spent in Chelsea/Kensington where the market is too expensive to build housing for people in need. That is simply facing the fact that the market in Kensington is in an upwards spiral. Secondly there's very little space in central London to build affordable housing, which is why this high rise was built in the first place. If you are poor then Kensington isn't exactly the best place to try to spend the little you have. 

It reminds me a bit of that lady that wanted a 6 bedroom flat on benefits in Islington who couldn't believe it when she got a £2m flat from the council. The state isn't bound by any legislation to house anyone in the most expensive part of the country. Surely tax money is better spent on the outside of our capital where you can build 3 houses for the price of one London home?

[peterms]

5 minutes ago, colhint said:

but isn't that totally against article 1 of ECHR. Not sure you can do that legally.

Without checking the EHCR, I would say that the existence of EDMOs, CPOs, control orders demonstrates that property rights are not sacred nor incompatible with that law.  In recent years they seem to have been elevated to a position of pre-eminence (sometimes by the same people whose inherited wealth comes from the Clearances - irony overload), but we need to reassert that the right to a home is more important than the right to launder stolen money through estate agents and push property prices through the roof.

[darrenm]

2 hours ago, magnkarl said:

Preach.

Get a room you 2