Manchester Arena Explosion

[Risso]

4 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Indeed.

It's also why I have long advocated the change in use of the term terrorist, to describing a methodology, rather than the more partisan use we are familiar with.

I'm not that familiar with the group this bloke's dad was affiliated with, whether they are/were the archetypical terrorist or more rebel fighter, or what their particular cause was.

Yes, the term has the possibility to be ambiguous.  Not when you walk into a packed gig full of kids with a bomb though.

[RimmyJimmer]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

Their demographic is highly loaded at the old end of the spectrum

And yes, there's plenty of them in this country. The Brexit referendum showed that, plenty of people voting against their own interests but not realising it

 

Plenty of morons voted to remain too, without knowing what they were voting for...but this isn't the thread for that squabble is it

[Awol]

31 minutes ago, Chindie said:

I can understand why they wouldn't want this to come out. Heavily suggests someone **** up. Or the entire system **** up, which starts to point fingers where many would rather they didn't go.

The group his dad belonged to seems to jump around as to whether they're ok or not depending on our position on Gaddafi. They were anti-Gaddafi, hence leaving under his regime.

Overly cynical view there, I think. They are trying to control the flow of info to maintain operational integrity, not engaging in conspiratorial arse covering. 

The group his dad belonged to was Islamist. Yes they wanted to overthrow Gaddafi, then replace his regime with an Islamic State. I don't know much about them but they seemingly had links to Bin Laden, which isn't the best character reference. 

[Awol]

We can put the lone wolf / found instructions on the Internet theory to bed. 

[mykeyb]

1 hour ago, Brumerican said:

 

What on earth are Christian values? 

Thou shalt not kill for a start.

[Chindie]

16 minutes ago, Risso said:

Yes, the term has the possibility to be ambiguous.  Not when you walk into a packed gig full of kids with a bomb though.

No, it's not ambiguous. It's always degrees of bad

I advocate using it more accurately. People always quote 'one man's terrorist...'. I don't think it's helpful. Someone on 'our side' doing something despicable isn't a freedom fighter. He's a terrorist with a more just cause in our view. 

Hence, it's a methodology.

[Brumerican]

Just now, mykeyb said:

Thou shalt not kill for a start.

Christ's dad sure did kill a lot. 

[Chindie]

5 minutes ago, Awol said:

Overly cynical view there, I think. They are trying to control the flow of info to maintain operational integrity, not engaging in conspiratorial arse covering. 

The group his dad belonged to was Islamist. Yes they wanted to overthrow Gaddafi, then replace his regime with an Islamic State. I don't know much about them but they seemingly had links to Bin Laden, which isn't the best character reference. 

I know that. Intelligence leaking is rarely good for the organisations that need it, and sometimes can be very bad - hence the correct uproar of Trump leaking Israeli info to Russia. That potentially kills people.

I don't think that excludes arse covering though. It's not a good look when someone you were told was dangerous blows up kids. Mistakes get made, but that has consequences. I'd want to keep that quiet in those circumstances, if nothing else to control reactions.

I don't know anything about the group so I'll bow to greater knowledge. It'll be interesting to see if the father was considered a threat or not, for whatever reason.

[Awol]

6 minutes ago, Chindie said:

I know that. Intelligence leaking is rarely good for the organisations that need it, and sometimes can be very bad - hence the correct uproar of Trump leaking Israeli info to Russia. That potentially kills people.

I don't think that excludes arse covering though. It's not a good look when someone you were told was dangerous blows up kids. Mistakes get made, but that has consequences. I'd want to keep that quiet in those circumstances, if nothing else to control reactions.

I don't know anything about the group so I'll bow to greater knowledge. It'll be interesting to see if the father was considered a threat or not, for whatever reason.

Bold: Doubt it considering they gave him asylum, but it was in the 90's when UK authorities took a much more permissive attitude towards Islamic terrorism. It was during that time the term Londonistan came into use - by foreign intelligence services. 

[Dr_Pangloss]

18 minutes ago, Awol said:

We can put the lone wolf / found instructions on the Internet theory to bed. 

Yes, didn't seem right, too much of a convenient narrative.

[Chindie]

2 minutes ago, Awol said:

Bold: Doubt it considering they gave him asylum, but it was in the 90's when UK authorities took a much more permissive attitude towards Islamic terrorism. It was during that time the term Londonistan came into use - by foreign intelligence services. 

Is the 'Londonistan' thing not more to do with the fact there was a lot of Asian immigration and population growth in London? Rather than full of threats?

The father has been interviewed by Bloomberg. Apparently he was a security officer for Gaddafi before being suspected of being an extremist, after which he fled. He also said his son was against such attacks when they spoke of them.

[Chindie]

6 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

Yes, didn't seem right, too much of a convenient narrative.

Not sure how you reach that conclusion. Either is possible.

[bickster]

46 minutes ago, RimmyJimmer said:

 

Plenty of morons voted to remain too, without knowing what they were voting for...but this isn't the thread for that squabble is it

example

ɪɡˈzɑːmp(ə)l,ɛɡˈzɑːmp(ə)l/

noun

 

1. 1.

   a thing characteristic of its kind or illustrating a general rule.

   "advertising provides a good example of an industry where dreams have faded"

   synonyms:

   specimen, sample, exemplar, exemplification, instance, case, representative case, typical case, case in point, illustration "a fine example of a 16th-century longhouse"

   •  

      

[Dr_Pangloss]

10 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Not sure how you reach that conclusion. Either is possible.

Evidence so far seems to point to it not been a lone wolf. 

[Chindie]

Just now, Dr_Pangloss said:

Evidence so far seems to point to it not been a lone wolf. 

But it didn't suggest either straight away, which is my point.

[Awol]

13 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Is the 'Londonistan' thing not more to do with the fact there was a lot of Asian immigration and population growth in London? Rather than full of threats?

The father has been interviewed by Bloomberg. Apparently he was a security officer for Gaddafi before being suspected of being an extremist, after which he fled. He also said his son was against such attacks when they spoke of them.

No as I said the term comes from the volume of Islamic terrorists, agitators and extremists we used to allow residence in the UK - ironically on the basis that they were fleeing political persecution. 

That's how the likes of Abu Qatada, Abu Hamza and the other fellow travellers of AQ ended up here.

Theory was they'd follow the 'don't s**t where you eat principle'. Turned out marvellously.

Edit: as for his Dad I'd just say that infiltrating the Security Services and Armed Forces is a well known jihadi technique. A few of their British brethren have tried (and failed) to join MI5. 

Edited May 24, 2017 by Awol

[Chindie]

3 minutes ago, Awol said:

No as I said the term comes from the volume of Islamic terrorists, agitators and extremists we used to allow residence in the UK - ironically on the basis that they were fleeing political persecution. 

That's how the likes of Abu Qatada, Abu Hamza and the other fellow travellers of AQ ended up here.

Theory was they'd follow the 'don't s**t where you eat principle'. Turned out marvellously.

Fair enough, I'd never heard it used in that context. I'd only ever encountered it as for it's racist connotations.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Chindie

[bickster]

1 hour ago, Risso said:

Yes, the term has the possibility to be ambiguous.  Not when you walk into a packed gig full of kids with a bomb though.

This bit reminded me of a thought I had last night.

Technically he didn't actually walk into the gig

He was in the public concourse outside the actual arena.

I don't see how the Manchester Arena can continue in its present configuration.

There's always been security at gigs going back further than either of us can remember but it happens at the point of entry to the event and logically it has to.

I'm not sure if the Manchester Arena is unique in having an area like that, which is effectively a public thoroughfare but there can't be many. It's pretty hard to isolate the event punters from the general public there and it's now an obvious easy, maximum impact contained space in which to detonate a device.

Obvious solution there is to close the public thoroughfare if that is possible

[Davkaus]

I'm not familiar with the Manchester Arena, but even if they deal with that area, surely that's just moving the thread along a few dozen feet to the nearest pedestrian area outside? 

Most venues are only going to have one or two major routes out. Think of Villa Park...they search people's bags on entrance top the stadium, but even if they did it at the perimeter of the ground, the amount of damage a bomb could do outside the holte pub, or the underpass could be catastrophic, and there's not much that can be done to protect against it.

It doesn't even need to be venues...Some word removed with a bomb walking in to Tesco on a Saturday afternoon could kill dozens. Supermarkets aren't going to start searching the bags of everyone that goes in. Shopping centres, just random high streets...If someone has the means and motivation to make a bomb, they're going to find a place to use it.

[Demitri_C]

Ariana grande has offered to pay for all the victims funerals. What a gesture.