Feminism vs social justice

[magnkarl]

Just now, StefanAVFC said:

As stated previously, Milo is purely a troll who says things purely to get a reaction. He deliberately goes to places to stir up outrage. Barring trolls from speaking is not suppressing free speech. 

He's even been banned from Twitter which is frankly impossible to do.

The right to free speech allows you to say whatever you want, but it does not magically exempt you from the consequences of your free speech. Whether this is societal consequences or legal consequences.

I 100% agree that he is a troll, but it sort of opened the flood gates for us I'm afraid. Since then there's been a string of people who got banned. Troll or not, he's not condoning violence or extremism. We can't have one set of rules for him and one set of rules for other people. 

[StefanAVFC]

A troll is a troll. In most civilised societies, trolls are treated as they should be. Yet, all of a sudden, it's a problem and people are canning free speech? I'm sorry but that's nonsense. I agree about Greer, and the extent of which some people take their differences of opinion; however Milo is a different kettle of fish. He is a troll and should be treated as such.

Also, I disagree about the whole premise of free speech dying. You can still say whatever the hell you want. That doesn't mean people have to stand around, respect said views and listen to it. 

[Chindie]

5 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

The problem is that it isn't a non-entity in universities around the country. People are getting banned from speaking because their views don't match that of the loudest groups in the universities. For example Judy Tindel (was invited to speak at Labour youth) and Milo Yiannopolous (was invited to speak at a conservative youth group) were barred at Winchester uni for not fitting into the "norm" that a very loud minority at our campus has. My university isn't the only uni where this goes on at.

As I've said I might be causing a storm in a glass of water here because I am exposed to this every day, so it might be a pretty non-entity outside of my circles. If so I'm sorry.

I'm not all that bothered by no-platforming. I tend to prefer to see bigots hung by their own petard but people have no right to speak to at any organisation. If Winchester conservative youth group is that interested in hearing what a word removed had to say, they can organise something else, off campus if needs be.

Nothing to do with free speech either. Noone has the right to speak in any organisation. Noone has the right to speak unopposed. If anyone feels so desperate to hear someone's views others don't wish to, campaign and shout louder your view, or seek it elsewhere.

[Rugeley Villa]

8 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

The norm up until about 2 years ago was that people who condone violence and terror weren't allowed to speak. We've had a wide range of people speak who had pretty extreme views, but they were allowed to anyway so that the students could discuss and debate. Now basically anyone who doesn't fit into a very weird, morphed sense of reality gets banned. Germaine Greer is one of the most banned people around the country because she's an old style feminist and she has some views on the trans-issues that these people don't like.

I think they have the same problem in the states with some very unsavoury people being aloud to give speeches. Regarding Germaine Greer and her views it's just the world we live in nowadays where as you point out if the boot doesn't fit then shout them down. I'm not comfortable with all these mixed messages I see but if someone is genuinely trapped inside the wrong body and it makes them happier being a male or female then so be it. It again goes to show that two sexes are different. 

[StefanAVFC]

I think the biggest dispute we have in the word isn't left v right or old v young, but old world v new. Or even, progression v conservatism.

And there's idiots on both sides of this. Old-school people who don't accept change, even when it's happening right here, right now. 

Then those who want radical progression tomorrow, without considering that for some, it will take a bit of time.

If we use the Greer example for both sides. An 'old world' person would be supporting Greer's views, and getting angry that these SJWs are shutting her down. A person on the extreme other side would be so disgusted by Greer's inability to accept people's choices and inability to catch up with progression, that they want to shut her down.

The middle ground, on either side, would be to accept that she can have her view, you can agree or disagree with it, but also accept that the people hosting the event have the right (or free speech) to cancel her platform. 

Ideally we need to get everyone into a room, slap the radicals on both sides and start accepting the fact that we are moving forward socially and attempting to stop it is fuelling the fires of division more than ever.

Edited April 30, 2017 by StefanAVFC

[magnkarl]

2 minutes ago, Chindie said:

I'm not all that bothered by no-platforming. I tend to prefer to see bigots hung by their own petard but people have no right to speak to at any organisation. If Winchester conservative youth group is that interested in hearing what a word removed had to say, they can organise something else, off campus if needs be.

Nothing to do with free speech either. Noone has the right to speak in any organisation. Noone has the right to speak unopposed. If anyone feels so desperate to hear someone's views others don't wish to, campaign and shout louder your view, or seek it elsewhere.

I do sort of agree with this, however taxpaying money is going into Winchester Uni to fund the Gender Studies' group's right to have a speech catered for on campus. Why shouldn't the Young Conservatives/Labour/Furries/People who like fish/whatever also be allowed? If you set a standard it has to be followed through, we can't have one set of rules for one group and bar all the other groups because it makes said group uncomfortable to hear someone's conflicting opinion. As I said it might just be me that is peeved off with this because I deal with this sort of thing a lot.

[StefanAVFC]

I think you're quite a bit off the mark when it comes to this topic generally, but as you said, it's probably based on your own experiences.

Universities aren't representative of society.

[magnkarl]

1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said:

I think you're quite a bit off the mark when it comes to this topic generally, but as you said, it's probably based on your own experiences.

Universities aren't representative of society.

Again, this is not what I am arguing. What I am arguing is that we are giving one group advantages that the others aren't getting. This is something that has cropped up recently in unis and it's only getting worse. Being progressive doesn't mean you shut down anyone who isn't a Gender Studies student. Is that old fashioned? If so I'll pack up my briefcase and not mention it again.

[StefanAVFC]

2 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Being progressive doesn't mean you shut down anyone who isn't a Gender Studies student.

Does this actually happen? Do you have an example?

As I've stated, there's idiots on both sides. I've met a few self-styled feminists who were so OTT in their views. But on the flip-side, I've met the same amount, if not more, people who whinge about political correctness ruining their lives, when really, they got angry when they were told they couldn't call their Indian neighbours 'pakis' anymore.

I think it's a dangerous path to start generalising unis as these places where only snowflakes live and work and they shout and cry if people don't share their views. From my experience, people like that are very much in the minority. 

[magnkarl]

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/oct/23/petition-urges-cardiff-university-to-cancel-germain-greer-lecture

Here's an example, not sure if the press wrote anything on my cases. Or the below article which shows how it's happening all over.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/02/14/90-percent-universities-restricting-free-speech-study-finds/

Edited April 30, 2017 by magnkarl

[StefanAVFC]

10 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Being progressive doesn't mean you shut down anyone who isn't a Gender Studies student.

 

2 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/oct/23/petition-urges-cardiff-university-to-cancel-germain-greer-lecture

That story is not "Progressives shutting down anyone who isn't a Gender Studies student'.

It's a group of people with very strong views who disagree with another person with very strong views. It's the two extremes butting heads.

[StefanAVFC]

Not UK related, but Trump campaigned on a platform of anti-PC. He was openly mysogenistic, sexist and racist; as well as insulting people, their wives, he lied and people lapped it up.

Yet, he's the biggest 'snowflake' of them all.

Today his chief of staff says he's looking at hows to change the constitution so that he can sue the press.

I think that's what makes me laugh most about this nonsense. Those who complain about PC culture and no free speech are often the ones most insulted when someone else offers up their own opinion.

[limpid]

There is no "right to free speech" in the UK. The closest statutory instrument we have is from the Human Rights Act, which a vocal minority of people want redacted.

The HRA seriously restricts the right of free expression so that even "insulting words" are not allowed.

[penguin]

40 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

 

That story is not "Progressives shutting down anyone who isn't a Gender Studies student'.

It's a group of people with very strong views who disagree with another person with very strong views. It's the two extremes butting heads.

Disagreement is absolutely fine. Trying to stop a viewpoint even being expressed because you don't agree with it is not.

Within reason of course.

Edited April 30, 2017 by penguin

[StefanAVFC]

41 minutes ago, penguin said:

Disagreement is absolutely fine. Trying to stop a viewpoint even being expressed because you don't agree with it is not.

Within reason of course.

 Sure, as you said, within reason.

I'm not disagreeing with that. (except in the case of trolls like Milo) I'm saying that it isn't the common view that they should be stopped. It's very much the extreme progressives who scream and shout about that.

Also, as Chindie says, organisations have every right to shut anyone down. If the demand was there for Greer's views, then people have every right to rearrange.

 

[Dr_Pangloss]

2 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

As stated previously, Milo is purely a troll who says things purely to get a reaction. He deliberately goes to places to stir up outrage. Barring trolls from speaking is not suppressing free speech. 

He's even been banned from Twitter which is frankly impossible to do.

The right to free speech allows you to say whatever you want, but it does not magically exempt you from the consequences of your free speech. Whether this is societal consequences or legal consequences.

Which if anything shows you how stupid Twitter are, they ban Milo (who I agree is a total troll) but do not take much action against those on the network who openly promote ISIS. 

[chrisp65]

I'm still confused by the title of the thread?

Is this equality versus equality we're all here to take a stance on?

If it is, I'm pitching for equality, the ones pitching for the other equality are just bastards.

[maqroll]

3 hours ago, magnkarl said:

I've spoken to many parents about this exact subject, and yes it has come to discussions like you say above. 1/8 British boys are diagnosed with ADD or other attention disorders. 1/7 American boys are. Instead of parents dealing with the fact that boys are more energetic than girls they are drugged, that is the sad truth.

My teenage nephew has a couple of friends who live down the road from him who live with their mother who cannot handle them. Consequently, they're all doped up, and by dinnertime they are close to just falling asleep.

 

2 hours ago, magnkarl said:

Germaine Greer

Camille Paglia falls into that group as well. The nerve of her to tell college girls to make smart choices at fraternity parties...

[Rugeley Villa]

10 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

Which if anything shows you how stupid Twitter are, they ban Milo (who I agree is a total troll) but do not take much action against those on the network who openly promote ISIS. 

That's the thing that confuses me too.

[Rugeley Villa]

Just now, maqroll said:

My teenage nephew has a couple of friends who live down the road from him who live with their mother who cannot handle them. Consequently, they're all doped up, and by dinnertime they are close to just falling asleep.

 

 

So wrong on many levels.