General Election 2017

[Awol]

There's a strong and obvious argument that invading Iraq (bloody Tory government) contributed to radicalisation, it's also one that ignores the Islamic terror attacks that pre-dated it.

If it's all about foreign policy why are we seeing Islamic terror attacks from Nigeria to Indonesia and the Philipines? 

Closer to home what about Germany, or Sweden, or Belgium? Staying out of Iraq and Libya hasn't stopped Islamic terrorists launching attacks in those countries, has it? 

Pretending that if we'd only change our foreign policy everything would be okay is a comfort blanket that suggests the power to stop these attacks is in our hands, it's our choices making these people do this. It denies the agency of the terrorists themselves, regarding them as Pavlovian idiots simply reacting to external stimuli. 

Maybe, just maybe these people actually mean the things they say about hating western civilisation and the need to destroy and replace it with Sharia law? 

That would be uncomfortable to think, but might at least get us beyond the denial phase we're currently locked in to. 

[Raver50032]

9 hours ago, darrenm said:

There's also another potentially more powerful angle. Fully politicise it but make no apologies for doing so because you're so angry about it and are laying the blame directly at the door of the Tories. Bit dog whistley but it's only what most of us are feeling.

I was going to say something similar. It's an incident of significant magnitude - for it (and the other things that have happened this year) NOT to feature in the bigger plan for our country, would be churlish in the extreme. The nation can't continue to turn the other cheek on it and pretend the subject is too sensitive. Absolutely it should be on the political agenda. There are ways and means of doing so, without treading on the toes of the families left devastated by the attack. To ignore it, is arguably just as bad in my opinion.

[Chindie]

It's far from the whole story, but I don't think you can deny our meddling in the Middle East hasn't helped.

[Demitri_C]

Part of me wants Labour to get destroyed in this election so they break up form a new party, a new party of hope and REAL choice for the people. as the two main parties are complete and utter shite  

[HanoiVillan]

1 minute ago, Demitri_C said:

Part of me wants Labour to get destroyed in this election so they break up form a new party, a new party of hope and REAL choice for the people. as the two main parties are complete and utter shite  

This makes little sense to me. Whether you like Corbyn or not, I don't really see how it can be denied that Labour and the Tories offer two very different choices in this election. 

[Chindie]

11 hours ago, Chindie said:

She has to accept some flack for it. But she won't. It'll be seen/deflected as cynical opportunism, and may backfire on anyone that makes the point as it's easily played up as using the bodies of kids for political points.

Which it is... But... It's not without merit.

But she's Teflon.

Like clockwork, this is exactly what's happening.

There's a completely valid point there, but it isn't allowed to be made and considered rationally.

[Demitri_C]

3 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

This makes little sense to me. Whether you like Corbyn or not, I don't really see how it can be denied that Labour and the Tories offer two very different choices in this election. 

In my view both offer very shit choices. I do feel alot of people are not actually happy with labour party as a whole but wont admit it, because of their hatred for conservative party.

uk politics is at its worst for me 

[darrenm]

4 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Part of me wants Labour to get destroyed in this election so they break up form a new party, a new party of hope and REAL choice for the people. as the two main parties are complete and utter shite  

You couldn't get any more left of Corbyn's Labour and still be taken seriously as mainstream. If you want more radical policies there's Green but they can't (unfortunately) get any traction with them.

Some of us see this Labour as the party of hope and real choice as they couldn't get much more different to the Tories.

[darrenm]

2 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Like clockwork, this is exactly what's happening.

There's a completely valid point there, but it isn't allowed to be made and considered rationally.

Yeah it was always going to happen. But it needs to be said. The people decrying making this speech now are in a small minority compared to others who the message will resonate with.

[markavfc40]

22 minutes ago, Raver50032 said:

I was going to say something similar. It's an incident of significant magnitude - for it (and the other things that have happened this year) NOT to feature in the bigger plan for our country, would be churlish in the extreme. The nation can't continue to turn the other cheek on it and pretend the subject is too sensitive. Absolutely it should be on the political agenda. There are ways and means of doing so, without treading on the toes of the families left devastated by the attack. To ignore it, is arguably just as bad in my opinion.

As PM or leader of any political party you can’t not talk about what happened in Manchester can you especially as there is an election in under two weeks and the public will want to know what you propose to do to help prevent these attacks. Surely it would be far worse to not talk about it or say I don’t think it is appropriate. ITV News actually said last night Corbyn will likely be criticised as the victims have not yet been buried so what do they expect don’t tell voters what your policies will be in relation to these issues until after the election. That would be unacceptable surely.

For what it is worth I think Corbyn is just stating the obvious really isn’t he. The huge cuts in Policing will have an impact on the safety of your citizens. Our Foreign policy will have had an impact in the rise of ISIL. It is for the Politicians to put across a case whether overall our foreign policy has had a positive or negative impact and whether had we done things differently things would have been worse or better and why going forward by doing this and this will be better. It would be ridiculous given what has happened for the party leaders to not provide reasons as to what they believe were contributing factors and what they plan to do to improve things. We need to hear this.

[meregreen]

3 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Part of me wants Labour to get destroyed in this election so they break up form a new party, a new party of hope and REAL choice for the people. as the two main parties are complete and utter shite  

Corbyn has changed Labour . To me he does offer hope, and certainly a choice for real change. They may not be a "new" party. But they most certainly are not the party of Blair. Saw a survey once which asked people of a certain age which decade they were happiest in. The seventies won. No period in time is ever perfect. But many of the values our country held then, about community and helping each other, about giving our children the best start in life we can, without saddling them with debt, about treating the sick according to the severity of their illness regardless of their income. Many of these things have been eroded over the years. So if Corbyn wants to restore some that compassion from a former decade, then bring it on.

[Dodgyknees]

I think if Labour are still in touch by Monday, and Corbyn has a strong debate that evening, then anything can happen.

The issue is in between now and then we are going to see a lot of hate from the Torgygraph, Scum and other right wing friendly media. 

[Dodgyknees]

2 minutes ago, meregreen said:

Corbyn has changed Labour . To me he does offer hope, and certainly a choice for real change. They may not be a "new" party. But they most certainly are not the party of Blair. Saw a survey once which asked people of a certain age which decade they were happiest in. The seventies won. No period in time is ever perfect. But many of the values our country held then, about community and helping each other, about giving our children the best start in life we can, without saddling them with debt, about treating the sick according to the severity of their illness regardless of their income. Many of these things have been eroded over the years. So if Corbyn wants to restore some that compassion from a former decade, then bring it on.

I don't agree with everything Corbyn says, but he offers me more hope than any other candidate and the party offers me more hope than any other party, other than the Green Party... but I have always been a Labour man, so it is nice to 'come home'. Blair made me hate the Labour Party and I had little to do with activism because of him, but now I feel we, as a party, can actually make a difference for all.

[Chindie]

I think it's a big if that he has a good interview with Andrew Neil. Neil will gun for the easy shots and the answers Corbyn will give will not play to much of the audience or the press.

[Dodgyknees]

17 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

This makes little sense to me. Whether you like Corbyn or not, I don't really see how it can be denied that Labour and the Tories offer two very different choices in this election. 

The Labour party getting destroyed... good luck if you break a leg, get your house burgled, have a kid, lose your job, need a leg up... because it'll be your life getting destroyed for 'not working hard enough'.

[Dodgyknees]

6 minutes ago, Chindie said:

I think it's a big if that he has a good interview with Andrew Neil. Neil will gun for the easy shots and the answers Corbyn will give will not play to much of the audience or the press.

IRA, Terrorism, no time for Corbyn to answer and then Neil repeats and repeats.

[Chindie]

8 minutes ago, DK82 said:

IRA, Terrorism, no time for Corbyn to answer and then Neil repeats and repeats.

Well there's that, but the answers he gives to those are not going to be the type of answers that play to the crowd. These things work with short clear answers. The moment he has to explain things, or give a more nuanced answer, he's ****. And I'll bet the answers he gives to those questions are not short and clear.

[villaglint]

Yep spot on @Awol our forays into Iraq definitely haven't helped but equally leaving Assad in power has emboldened the Jihadist cause. 

Its obvious why Corbyn is going down this line. It's a consistent point of differentiation between him and Theresas Mays teams and as you rightly point out he is at least partly correct in his analysis. 

As you go on to point out it isn't the whole storey by any stretch. I think @blandy said a few days back the reason the politicians don't talk about this is that none of them know the answers. This is one of those least worst option type issues which isn't that sexy to discuss in detail during an election. Unfortunately for the politicians this weeks awful events have forced it on to the agenda. I think it's actually a good thing that the public here's about these issues and has its say because we are the ones facing the threat. Just a crying shame it took something like this to make it happen. 

Edited May 26, 2017 by villaglint

[Demitri_C]

I bet May is actually regretting her decision at calling this election as Corbyns catching her., what a complete and utter shambles she has been as a leader of the Tory Party. If she loses this election now the one good thing is she won't be leader anymore thank god. 

Edited May 26, 2017 by Demitri_C

[darrenm]

38 minutes ago, Chindie said:

I think it's a big if that he has a good interview with Andrew Neil. Neil will gun for the easy shots and the answers Corbyn will give will not play to much of the audience or the press.

Absolutely. May has been fully prepared for the questions she will have and she's actually done well to dodge some pretty indefensible positions because of the preparation. Hopefully Jezza will have precanned responses ready for all right wing attack vectors Neil will pull out. I predict 15 minutes will be about the IRA so he needs a strong message on that.