mockingbird_franklin Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Awol said: It remains to be seen whether it will take them smashing the Tories next time around to spark a renaissance on the centre right, but as it stands if they were animals you'd take both main parties to the vet. we can only hope somewhere along the way a centre right party does emerge, shame it hasn't happened over the last 20 years, then we wouldn't have had to endure this extremist radical neoliberal far right corporatist plurocracy of a tory party we've had to for the last 7 years/ this lot make thatcher look like a lefty trot and an intellectual genius at the same time Edited May 22, 2017 by mockingbird_franklin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post darrenm Posted May 22, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted May 22, 2017 45 minutes ago, magnkarl said: You seem to forget that these two politicians didn't make these decisions alone, Blair's woes, despicable I agree, was made with his party's backing (of which Jeremy Corbyn was a central figure). The same can be said about Cameron's brexit referendum. We're not a totalitarian state where a PM can do whatever they want. No offence, but are you not from this country? You seem to have some gaping holes in your knowledge of past events. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 18 minutes ago, Awol said: I remember the morning after the referendum Hitchens punditing on the BBC described Labour and the Tories as two political corpses propping each other up, a year on that seems precient. They've both embraced their worst historical instincts, are intellectually exhausted and don't appear to have any real answers. After this debacle of an election Blair's boys/babies seem certain to make a comeback from the centre left as a new party. It remains to be seen whether it will take them smashing the Tories next time around to spark a renaissance on the centre right, but as it stands if they were animals you'd take both main parties to the vet. I think the Labour manifesto is a fantastically modern, progressive vision for how to recover from the sorry state this country is in. I think Diane Abbott aside, he's got some really impressive front benchers who are just starting to show how good they are. (Barry Gardiner, Jonathan Ashworth, Sarah Champion, Rebecca Long-Bailey) and I think someone like Corbyn actually being a human being unlike May will endear him to the EU negotiators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) 14 minutes ago, darrenm said: No offence, but are you not from this country? You seem to have some gaping holes in your knowledge of past events. Yes Nigel, I'm from Germany. Honestly. The foreigner card is out folks, quick someone grab the Hitler card. The only difference between us is probably that I've lived about 30 years longer than you have. Does that make me less British than you? Sorry to burst your liberal bubble, but the divide in this country is along age lines, not just nationalistic lines. But do keep telling yourself that anyone who disagrees with you are either foreign, uneducated, old, old fashioned or otherwise mentally over-encumbered. Edited May 22, 2017 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 The weirdest thing just came over me. Seeing May squirming in front of Andrew Neill, I almost felt sorry for her! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 56 minutes ago, magnkarl said: You seem to forget that these two politicians didn't make these decisions alone, Blair's woes, despicable I agree, was made with his party's backing (of which Jeremy Corbyn was a central figure). I've just been taken to a whole new level of WTF! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mockingbird_franklin Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 upload picture 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 1 minute ago, chrisp65 said: I've just been taken to a whole new level of WTF! The point of my argument wasn't that Corbyn said yes or no to going to war, it's the fact that we are trying to cram so many different people into two parties. Labour should by all means be 2 or 3 parties, with Corbyn being in one of the ones that would form further to the left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mockingbird_franklin Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 6 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Yes Nigel, I'm from Germany. Honestly. The foreigner card is out folks, quick someone grab the Hitler card. The only difference between us is probably that I've lived about 30 years longer than you have. it ain't the years since manufacture but the miles on the clock that counts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 4 minutes ago, darrenm said: I think the Labour manifesto is a fantastically modern, progressive vision for how to recover from the sorry state this country is in. I think Diane Abbott aside, he's got some really impressive front benchers who are just starting to show how good they are. (Barry Gardiner, Jonathan Ashworth, Sarah Champion, Rebecca Long-Bailey) and I think someone like Corbyn actually being a human being unlike May will endear him to the EU negotiators. I don't recognise anything you've said there in terms of Corbyn, the Labour manifesto or his supporting cast, but do agree that May increasingly resembles some form of alien life in drag. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mockingbird_franklin Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Just now, magnkarl said: The point of my argument wasn't that Corbyn said yes or no to going to war, it's the fact that we are trying to cram so many different people into two parties. Labour should by all means be 2 or 3 parties, with Corbyn being in one of the ones that would form further to the left. you change your position quicker than may does a u-turn, problem is you based your claimed argument on a complete twisting of the facts in an attempt to portray something that wasn't true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Just now, mockingbird_franklin said: you change your position quicker than may does a u-turn, problem is you based your claimed argument on a complete twisting of the facts in an attempt to portray something that wasn't true So what did I claim and not claim? Was Corbyn not a part of Labour when the MP's voted to go to war? Let's hyperbole something out of me stating that Cameron and Blair were better at debating than both JC and TM are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, TrentVilla said: I agree, every time she is on the ropes he returns to the centre of the ring. Where is Paxman when you need him. It was like watching a BBC interview with a PL manager where they dare not ask the wrong thing for fear of losing access. Paxo is having a nibble at her next Monday. Edited May 22, 2017 by VillaChris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 54 minutes ago, magnkarl said: I didn't say the he liked it. I said he was part of the party that went to war. I think of many, many fair criticisms of Corbyn, but 'the Iraq War' is most definitely not one of them. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 47 minutes ago, Awol said: I remember the morning after the referendum Hitchens punditing on the BBC described Labour and the Tories as two political corpses propping each other up, a year on that seems precient. They've both embraced their worst historical instincts, are intellectually exhausted and don't appear to have any real answers. After this debacle of an election Blair's boys/babies seem certain to make a comeback from the centre left as a new party. It remains to be seen whether it will take them smashing the Tories next time around to spark a renaissance on the centre right, but as it stands if they were animals you'd take both main parties to the vet. While I appreciate that, like quite a lot of people on this thread, you may not feel particularly enthused by the choice on offer, it remains an awkward fact that the two main parties are going to account for far more of the vote between them than they have for many years. If people don't want what they're offering, they've got a funny way of showing it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 6 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: While I appreciate that, like quite a lot of people on this thread, you may not feel particularly enthused by the choice on offer, it remains an awkward fact that the two main parties are going to account for far more of the vote between them than they have for many years. If people don't want what they're offering, they've got a funny way of showing it. That is a big problem indeed. I think the people who can't identify with the two biggies are feeling a bit complacent to be honest. For example with my seat there's really only going to be one outcome and that is the Conservatives. What made the Brexit vote refreshing was the chance people had to show up the establishment. The fact that a lot of people still doubt the effect that this segment of society can have for their party if they just offered the right policies is troublesome for democracy. Either you go left or you go right, especially in this election, there is no valid alternative because the Lib Dems were ruined by the conservatives during Cameron's stint. For me personally I'd like to either see someone centre left or centre right come back on the stage with a bit more of a pick and mix variety than we have today. You don't correct something that is a bit off (like NHS) by blowing it up and going in the total other direction. You make small adjustments to make things better. That's what our system was about for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 39 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Yes Nigel, I'm from Germany. Honestly. The foreigner card is out folks, quick someone grab the Hitler card. The only difference between us is probably that I've lived about 30 years longer than you have. Does that make me less British than you? Sorry to burst your liberal bubble, but the divide in this country is along age lines, not just nationalistic lines. But do keep telling yourself that anyone who disagrees with you are either foreign, uneducated, old, old fashioned or otherwise mentally over-encumbered. Uh? I honestly thought you were from a Scandinavian country. I'm sure you said you knew lots about the political systems there. Slightly creepy you've gone to the trouble of looking up my details. But I've got nothing to hide and I leave it out there, so I can't feel too violated. It seemed that you not knowing how Corbyn vehemently opposed the Iraq war, causing Tony Blair to hate him now and constantly be trying to stick the knife in, was just a gap in knowledge that would be indicative of someone who didn't live in this country and just read facts off the internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mockingbird_franklin Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) 48 minutes ago, magnkarl said: For me personally I'd like to either see someone centre left or centre right come back on the stage with a bit more of a pick and mix variety than we have today. You don't correct something that is a bit off (like NHS) by blowing it up and going in the total other direction. You make small adjustments to make things better. That's what our system was about for a long time. Unfortunately neoliberalism was invented and we have been driving determinedly onward to a corporatocracy ever since. new labour was a center right party but unfortunately was still neoliberal, neoliberalism is the problem as its a ideology driven by an economic theory, well that is pure horseshit Edited May 22, 2017 by mockingbird_franklin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mockingbird_franklin Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 5 minutes ago, darrenm said: Uh? I honestly thought you were from a Scandinavian country. I'm sure you said you knew lots about the political systems there. Slightly creepy you've gone to the trouble of looking up my details. But I've got nothing to hide and I leave it out there, so I can't feel too violated. It seemed that you not knowing how Corbyn vehemently opposed the Iraq war, causing Tony Blair to hate him now and constantly be trying to stick the knife in, was just a gap in knowledge that would be indicative of someone who didn't live in this country and just read facts off the internet. to follow the assertions about corbyn along logical extensions would mean all those anti war protesters, by being part of the populace that voted for a blair government were central to us going to war in iraq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 5 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Yes, because knowing something about another country indeed turns you into a national of said country. I've visited Scandinavia many times with work for Winchester University, but I can't say that my passport is anything else than British. I don't "stick the knife" in any particular direction. There are a few people in this thread who just can't help getting personal when someone doesn't agree with them, for someone of my age that is a sad thing to see because we used to be able to hold debates without everything getting so bleeding inflammatory. A lot of Loose Tongue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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