Popular Post markavfc40 Posted April 19, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted April 19, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, NurembergVillan said: It'll be absolutely touted as a Brexit election. Prominent right wing Twitter gobshites are already brainwashing the gullible masses. In keeping with their editorial tone though, the Mail are a few goose steps further to the right. Seems they wouldn't mind a civil war... That says it all really doesn’t it. The biggest load of bullshit I heard yesterday came from Theresa May when she said the country is united but Westminster isn’t. I mean really? Those that voted remain being labelled at best remoaners and at worst saboteurs. As Stefan said earlier in the thread this country is as divided as I can ever remember in my 43 years. Be it those that voted leave or remain, the demonization of those on benefits including disabled people, two tier system of education with the reintroduction of grammar schools, the wilful destruction of public services leading to those with the least most reliant on things such as social care feeling abandoned and the slow painful road towards privatization of the NHS leading to the inevitable end game of decent healthcare only for those that can afford it. This country is a million miles away from being united and under this divisive mob that won’t be changing anytime soon. Quite the opposite. Edited April 19, 2017 by markavfc40 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted April 19, 2017 Share Posted April 19, 2017 Just now, markavfc40 said: The biggest load of bullshit I heard yesterday you obviously missed the part where Liz McInnes blamed May for ruining her mothers funeral by announcing the GE (on Twitter) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted April 19, 2017 Share Posted April 19, 2017 25 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: I took exception to your statement that implied I wanted a liberal panel to regulate what thicko right-wingers read, and that I championed left-wing authoritarianism. Then what's the solution? Front pages branding judges 'enemies of the people' for simply doing their jobs are wrong. They incite hatred and anger against innocent people. And we can't trust Theresa May or Amber Rudd to condemn them. May is too busy condemning fictitious 'non-Easter' eggs. I know deep down that regulation isn't a solution that is realistic, but I;m genuinely worried ta how far the press, especially the Mail, will go when they're unchecked. They don't particularly have the best history with fascist regimes. Political discourse is at an unbelievably toxic level in this country, and I'd place the blame for most of that on media. Regardless of affiliation. Your instinct is to regulate that which you don't approve of, i.e. an authoritarian position. That you don't realize it doesn't make it less so. You don't like the headlines in the Mail most days, neither do I. My solution is not to read it, but I wouldn't try to stop others from doing so if that's their thing, i.e. a liberal position. It seems you're worried that other people you don't know might be persuaded by the media to hold views you disagree with, but if they are reading the Mail then they already do.. Vive le difference, we aren't a united homogenous polity and we don't need to be, democracy wouldn't work if we were. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted April 19, 2017 Share Posted April 19, 2017 11 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: you obviously missed the part where Liz McInnes blamed May for ruining her mothers funeral by announcing the GE (on Twitter) Doesn’t come close does it to what May said which was a blatant outright lie and therefore total bullshit. Had McInnes made up the fact it was her mom’s funeral it may have been comparable. Unless of course you believe we do live in a united country. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted April 19, 2017 Share Posted April 19, 2017 Just now, Awol said: It seems you're worried that other people you don't know might be persuaded by the media to hold views you disagree with, but if they are reading the Mail then they already do.. Vive le difference, we aren't a united homogenous polity and we don't need to be, democracy wouldn't work if we were. I disagree with both of these statements. 1 minute ago, Awol said: It seems you're worried that other people you don't know might be persuaded by the media to hold views you disagree with, but if they are reading the Mail then they already do. I'm not worried these newpapers are fueling different points of view. They've always done that. Both sides. And it's fine. As you said, vive le difference. I'm worried that they're creating real toxic division with the rhetoric they're pursuing. As I've stated, labelling judges simply doing their job as 'Enemies of the people' is not persuading people to hold a certain view. It's outright inciting hatred and potential violence against innocent people based on an incredibly loose interpretation of the facts. Where does it end? At which point do we say enough is enough? As NV said, it's almost as if they're actively trying to start a civil war. 1 minute ago, Awol said: Vive le difference, we aren't a united homogenous polity and we don't need to be, democracy wouldn't work if we were. That headline is anti-democracy. It labels those who simply hold a different viewpoint as saboteurs. And it isn't the first time since Brexit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_c Posted April 19, 2017 Share Posted April 19, 2017 8 hours ago, HanoiVillan said: #mediacriticism Daily Mail quoting Lenin, LOL. We're through the rabbit hole now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post NurembergVillan Posted April 19, 2017 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted April 19, 2017 It's almost like these right wing haterags are being given unseen privileges to stay "on message". Nah, it'd never happen. In other, completely unrelated, news - Paul Dacre is the only media figure to have been granted a private audience (a private dinner, no less) with the PM at the Führerbunker in the first 6 months of her elevation last year. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted April 19, 2017 Share Posted April 19, 2017 (edited) 24 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: I disagree with both of these statements. I'm not worried these newpapers are fueling different points of view. They've always done that. Both sides. And it's fine. As you said, vive le difference. I'm worried that they're creating real toxic division with the rhetoric they're pursuing. As I've stated, labelling judges simply doing their job as 'Enemies of the people' is not persuading people to hold a certain view. It's outright inciting hatred and potential violence against innocent people based on an incredibly loose interpretation of the facts. Where does it end? At which point do we say enough is enough? As NV said, it's almost as if they're actively trying to start a civil war. That headline is anti-democracy. It labels those who simply hold a different viewpoint as saboteurs. And it isn't the first time since Brexit. You're right about the political atmosphere being toxic, though I've genuinely seen far more derision and outright hate spewed about Leave voters on social media than the other way around. I suspect most people think it's not very edifying, roll their eyes and go about their day. Ditto with absurd tabloid headlines. Writing or saying something stupid isn't the same as inciting violence, it's part of the rough and tumble discourse of a free press. You should point and laugh at the eye bleeding stupidity of the Mail and it's readers, not get hysterical about it. Edit: You've just liked the post above this one discussing the PM's Fuhrerbunker, yet you fret over divisive rhetoric. Bit silly really, isn't it? Edited April 19, 2017 by Awol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted April 19, 2017 Share Posted April 19, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Awol said: Writing or saying something stupid isn't the same as inciting violence, it's part of the rough and tumble discourse of a free press. You should point and laugh at the eye bleeding stupidity of the Mail and it's readers, not get hysterical about it. Labeling judges as enemies of the nation/people is not saying something stupid. It's inciting hatred. Labeling 48% of the population as traitors and saboteurs is not simply 'saying something stupid'. I think that's a gross underestimation of the problem. I'd laugh at the 'eye-bleeding stupidity' if it wasn't so widely read and accepted as fact. That's the scary part. Add The Sun to this, and they aren't some minority paper and their readers aren't some minority party. Edited April 19, 2017 by StefanAVFC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted April 19, 2017 Share Posted April 19, 2017 9 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: I'd laugh at the 'eye-bleeding stupidity' if it wasn't so widely read and accepted as fact. That's the scary part. Add The Sun to this, and they aren't some minority paper and their readers aren't some minority party. We seem to have travelled in a circle (it happens when you have one eye closed) so I'll just leave this here. 'The uneducated right wing masses need us better educated liberal types to decide the political messages they are allowed to hear, thus ensuring only our correct views reach what passes for their poor, dumb consciousness.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted April 19, 2017 Share Posted April 19, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Awol said: We seem to have travelled in a circle (it happens when you have one eye closed) so I'll just leave this here. Quote 'The uneducated right wing masses need us better educated liberal types to decide the political messages they are allowed to hear, thus ensuring only our correct view Really? That's what you got from this exchange? I wasn't saying that in the slightest. YOU made this about right v left. Not me. I am stating that it's fine for both sides to try and persuade their readers to reach a certain political position. Freedom of the press. Vive le difference and all that. What isn't fine, is inciting hatred again people simply doing their jobs, or labellng half the electorate as traitors or enemies. That has **** nothing to do with left vs right. Disgusting and hugely disappointing response. Edited April 19, 2017 by StefanAVFC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted April 19, 2017 Share Posted April 19, 2017 3 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Disgusting and hugely disappointing response. See that's exactly what I mean about you being hysterical. "Inciting hatred!" Were you incited to hatred? Was anyone on this forum? Was anyone at all, or have you just made an assumption about how it made people less intelligent than you feel? Have a day off mate, there will be plenty of stuff to genuinely outraged about over the next few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted April 19, 2017 Share Posted April 19, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Awol said: "Inciting hatred!" Were you incited to hatred? Was anyone on this forum? Was anyone at all, or have you just made an assumption about how it made people less intelligent than you feel? If you can't see how printing out 3 huge pictures of judges on the front page of a major newspaper, labelling them 'enemies of the nation' is inciting hatred, then this conversation is done. FWIW, i'd feel the same if the Guardian/Independent did it. It isn't anything to do with left/right, so kindly stop playing that card. Ta. Edited April 19, 2017 by StefanAVFC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PompeyVillan Posted April 19, 2017 Share Posted April 19, 2017 13 hours ago, snowychap said: I agree but isn't this at the heart of a real issue in UK politics? That not only are the Tories remarkably seen as economically competent as a default but also that the same kinds of questions (how the hell are you actually going to afford this and bring it to fruition, for example) are not generally asked, at least as dismissively and skeptically, of the Tories as they are of other parties. Often there is a human cost to Conservative policies and it's a currency they're fast and loose with. It's shamefully easier to ignore the human cost of these policies for many in the country who are not chronically ill, disabled, working poor, vulnerable or foreign. They've their nasty media mouth pieces that have convinced many that Labour caused the International Banking Crisis, the country can't afford the NHS and that if you fall on hard times you're a scrounger with an easy life. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted April 19, 2017 Share Posted April 19, 2017 1 hour ago, markavfc40 said: That says it all really doesn’t it. The biggest load of bullshit I heard yesterday came from Theresa May when she said the country is united but Westminster isn’t. I mean really? Those that voted remain being labelled at best remoaners and at worst saboteurs. As Stefan said earlier in the thread this country is as divided as I can ever remember in my 43 years. Be it those that voted leave or remain, the demonization of those on benefits including disabled people, two tier system of education with the reintroduction of grammar schools, the wilful destruction of public services leading to those with the least most reliant on things such as social care feeling abandoned and the slow painful road towards privatization of the NHS leading to the inevitable end game of decent healthcare only for those that can afford it. This country is a million miles away from being united and under this divisive mob that won’t be changing anytime. Quite the opposite. It's true everyone was together when they wanted bliar out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_c Posted April 19, 2017 Share Posted April 19, 2017 I would be interested to see the figures of where people actually get their news nowadays. I think it would be largely online, and this is one of the ways Trump managed to win the American election. His campaign spent millions manipulating the flow of online news. I wouldn't completely disregard the influence of traditional media, but I certainly would pay more attention to online sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PieFacE Posted April 19, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted April 19, 2017 As much as I hate the way the Tories are going about things you can't really blame them. The opposition is so pathetic it's a bit of a no brainer for them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LakotaDakota Posted April 19, 2017 Share Posted April 19, 2017 (edited) 16 minutes ago, jon_c said: I would be interested to see the figures of where people actually get their news nowadays. I think it would be largely online, and this is one of the ways Trump managed to win the American election. His campaign spent millions manipulating the flow of online news. I wouldn't completely disregard the influence of traditional media, but I certainly would pay more attention to online sources. As far as traditional print is concerned The Sun & The Mail sell far more than everything else combined on a daily basis. (sun 1.5 mil, mail 1.45 mil) The one people do not consider usually is The Metro, which now has a circulation of 1.475 million daily. Apparently Metro now has the highest average monthly readership of any UK national at over 10.4 million. The Metro & The Mail are both owned/run by DMG media Edited April 19, 2017 by LakotaDakota Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted April 19, 2017 Share Posted April 19, 2017 Can we have a poll of voting intent in this thread , just for giggles and to see how big a majority the greens will have in Parliament if VT was the entire electorate ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Straggler Posted April 19, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted April 19, 2017 I voted remain. I will vote for a party in the next election that has remaining as part of their manifesto. If that party wins (they won't) or a coalition is formed from several parties that feel the same way (blooming unlikely) then I would expect the best efforts to be put in to reverse the article 50 triggering. Am I a traitor now? Am I a saboteur? I thought I was just expressing my opinion in a free country. By campaigning for remain parties I don't think I am subverting the democratic process, I think I am taking part in it. Both Theresa May and the right wing press would have you believe that my statements above make me an enemy of the people. Just for having a different opinion and expressing it. Any MP that stands on the platform that I believe in is also tarred with the same brush. Simultaneously asking for a mandate from the people to do a hard brexit whilst maintaining that the will of the people has already been expressed and anyone who votes against it is a saboteur is a bullshit position. You either need a mandate or you already have one, but campaigning from a position where you class any opposition vote as subverting the democratic system is nonsense. All I want is a proper fricking debate. Allow me and people like me to air our concerns and lay out a platform that addresses them. Even if the position is that the Tories think my opinion is poorly thought through and they know better, that is fine. However what is happening is that the debate is being shut down and turned into a binary leave = patriotic and any opposition = traitor. You may say that the Daily Mail and it's like can just be ignored, but the aggressive attempts to shut down the debate are working in the real world. I think twice about bringing up my opinion in a new group of people as I have had really hostile reactions to saying that I would like to reverse the Brexit process. I'd also like to reverse the privatization of the NHS, but no one gets offended by that in the main. I'm a Liberal most of the time, not any sort of anti democratic bring down the state commie or anything like that, but some how I am now cast as such. I'd expect the reaction I have got to be reserved for holocaust deniers or white supremacists, not a bloke who likes environmental protection and laws that protect the rights of the workforce. The rhetoric matters, the lack of proper debate matters. 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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